What’s the general MN verdict on donor eggs?

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The general critical re-examination of surrogacy is quite evident, and I have my own views on that, which I’ll keep quiet for the purposes of this thread.

Now I find myself chewing over other fertility treatment. I’ve had fertility treatment myself and so have family members. So I have a sense of how private clinics put you on a conveyor belt and normalise things.

What is the general view on donor eggs & embryos (implanted into the birth mother and gestated by her)?

Im trying really hard not to bias the result so have tossed a coin to assign YABU/YANBU to viewpoints. Don’t read into that.

YANBU = Donor gametes are ethically fine.
YABU = Donor gametes are problematic.

Unfortunately many on here don’t understand or don’t want to understand the difference.

ignorance has been a driver in many of these replies it seems

I think this illustrates the problem of using the terms genetic and biological interchangeably. A woman who receives a 5 day old blastocyst and carries it to term plays a critical biological role in producing a child, and the environment she provides determines the material outcomes of the pregnancy, including how inherited genes are expressed. There isn't an equivalence with sperm donation.

Up until recently they were one and the same. Now technology has made it possible to be the birth mother of a child without being the genetic mother. It's bound to lead to confusion.

I remember when having IVF I looked down the microscope at the embryos that were about to be implanted in my womb. I was their genetic mother even though I never became their birth mother.

@Overthewine A woman, presumably a young student, in desperate need of money, sold her own biological children

if the embryos created using the donor egg and sperm of the husband didn’t implant has this woman sold her own biological children? If not why not?

Also had to laugh at this really - clearly someone who doesn’t have an iota of knowledge about how ivf works.

For decades she will have it playing on her mind if she has any children out there, out of the hundreds of eggs she probably donated - because young girls respond well to egg stimulation

I disagree. I'm conceived from donor sperm, and frequently wonder whether I should exist. I'm largely of the opinion that gamete donation shouldn't exist, it's pretty shit not knowing anything about half your biological heritage. However, it's not black and white, and the pain of infertility is awful (plus I think gay people should be able to be parents). Of course you have strong feelings about this, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

The problem I have with them isn't on the receiving end (the expecting parents) but the donor end. Often young women are targeted to sell/donate their eggs and it is always portrayed as an easy way to make money, comparable to sperm donation. In reality it takes weeks of preparatory hormone injections followed by invasive surgery (and they always take more eggs than they really need, to ensure the best chances of success) and a recovery period which is not adequately compensated for. I really do think it's a terrible example of the commodification of women's bodies.

This is also what I have a massive problem with. I remember at uni there was a stand at the freshers fair encouraging girls to sign up! It was sold as both an easy money maker and also 'look at you being such a good generous person'. But no one was told until much later in the process actually how 'easy' it wasn't and the effects of the hormones on the body, recovery etc...so much later in the process that most of the people who signed up had missed the boat to get other student jobs and were thus stuck with this as their only way to make money to meet living expenses.

There also seems to be an air of sexism to it to me. Why was there a stand for women to donate eggs but not for men to donate sperm? Why for sperm donation are men not coerced into it by language about being generous, and kind, and giving another person a 'gift'. It's not the donation of gametes neccessarily I have a problem with but definitely the medical process involved, and how it's marketed to young women feels deceitful and coercive.

This very succinctly outlines what I was trying to say. The logic seems to shift depending on what the 'commissioning' person wants it to be.

wow , you are the child of donor sperm and of the view that sperm donation shouldn’t be allowed ?

And proving precisely the point that some posters have repeatedly made. Being a wanted and loved child still doesn't take away the disconnect from not knowing your origins..or from feeling unhappy about it.
These are complicated issues that the children born from these various arrangements will have to consider all their lives. It must be done in a way that acknowledges and reflects that. It can't be only about the wants of the parents but also about the children.

But this is nonsense. In UK law it is quite clear that the birth mother is the mother (in all scenarios). That is why people using surrogacy have to pass through a legal process to obtain either a parental order or to formally adopt.

Which isn't to comment on the ethical aspect, just to point out that the law is in fact quite consistent.

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I repeat anything

Personally I could never judge anyone for using donors. I know its not a popular opinion but the right to be able to have a child (so long as you can support it emotionally and financially) is such a basic one to me. It's all I ever wanted and would not have been able to he happy without my children. I was lucky but that's all it was, luck, I don't deserve them any more than someone who wasn't as lucky.

I donated my eggs to a close friend whose eggs were not viable. I couldn't have done it anonymously as I needed to know the baby would be looked after well and because I felt I owed it to my children that they knew their 'half sibling' - this isn't how we refer to the child but they know it is technically the case and was my only condition to doing it (luckily she agreed she wanted to he completely open about it with her child too). We had to do counselling beforehand and they said the child would always be special to me and she is but because I love her mum so much, I don't feel remotely like she is in any way mine and I don't think she would be any less special had she been biologically my friend's.

My only moral issue, is when people who have IVF using their own eggs, get a discount if they give some of their eggs away to others. This doesn't sit right with me because it may be the only way they can have the IVF they need. I still don't think badly of those on the receiving end though, not one bit

I'm not referring to the law, I'm commenting on the fact that on this thread, the role of the egg doner is diminished and lots of people are saying that the birth mother is of primary importance.
However on a thread about surrogacy you will see similar justifications by people diminishing the role of the surrogate or 'birth mother' and amplifying the importance of the egg and dna(where they have had their egg implanted in a surrogate).
Hence the narrative shifts depending on the interests of the 'commissioning' parent.

And if you don't know because you were conceived using donated egg or sperm you say 'I don't know. I was conceived using donated egg/sperm'.

That's literally the end of it. Information not available. Move on.

In your situation it sounds like the only way this can work. With truly altruistic intent, no coercion, financial or otherwise and proper consideration given to the rights and feelings of the children involved, including your own.

I'm glad this worked out for you and your friend. However it doesn't assuage other ethical concerns around egg donation as not all situations are going to be similar unfortunately.

I lost the post I was quoting. It was in reference to the importance of knowing a genetic parent because apparently this medical information is frequently asked for. Perhaps it is. That doesn't mean the doctor says I DONT KNOW HOW TO TREAT YOU. YOU WILL THEREFORE DIE if that information is not available.

I know its not a popular opinion but the right to be able to have a child (so long as you can support it emotionally and financially) is such a basic one to me.

There is no such right.

The ECHR mentions the right to "marry and found a family" but that is to do with state interference in reproductive choices. Enforced sterilisation etc. It doesn't mean everyone has the right to a child. How would such a right be enforced? Nature has the final say.

If you were the child of rape would you have no right to criticise rape?

That sounds almost like a sense of bereavement. I imagine there is a great sense of loss, many of us take knowing something about our heritage for granted. I like to know the stories of my ancestors, even if I never met them. I hope you have some stories on your mother's side.

@BackOnTheBandWagon do you think you may feel differently if your mother had dealt with the issue differently with you??

There's several things I find problematic about donor eggs. TLDR: Preys on young women, children's rights not considered, commodification of women's bodies, eugenics concerns.

One, ads and marketing prey on young women's socialization to be kind and her naïveté about motherhood. When I was 18, 19 and 20, I had little future thought to my fertility (donors risk their health) or my future children (no idea until I had kids how intensely connected I am to my DDs simply due to how much they are like me/my mom/my aunts/my sisters/my father. I would love an adopted child just as much, but it's uncanny the genetic connection. This is not simply nurture, much is nature. Also, I would have had no idea what it would have felt like to have living children out in the world who I had no right to know or learn if they were safe and loved. I'm so happy I never sold my eggs.

Two: Adoptees have shown over and over that knowing their birth origins is essential to their sense of identity. Even adoptees who were raised by healthy and loving families want to know who they came from. Donor eggs deny this in many cases.

Three: Women's bodies should never be commodified and I see donor eggs (which are really paid eggs) as exploitation of women. Extracting eggs is not without risk...what if she has infertility as a result? This has happened in numerous cases and I don't think I could live with myself knowing I'd caused that to another woman.

Fourth: In many cases donor eggs are a form of eugenics - you literally pick from a catalogue of young, pretty, slender, college-educated women. Eggs from white or Japanese women cost the most money/are most in demand. I'm very uncomfortable with this.

@Tandora Yep. I'm not the only one who thinks it either.

Good question. My parents (I have a Dad, just not biologically related) didn't tell me until I was in my early twenties, which will undoubtedly influence my feelings about it. I've flip flopped however - initially had no opinion / was supportive by default, then was totally against it, and now have softened to a middle ground - sympathising with why people use donor gametes, but it's not something I could do myself. I hadn't thought about it for years until I had my son, when it all came crashing back in - who is the stranger who makes up a quarter of my son's dna? (approximately speaking of course).

If I'd known from a child (as is now recommended), I could well feel differently, but I guess I went from thinking I knew my heritage to "losing" half of it, and I do grieve that. Perhaps I wouldn't miss it if I never thought I'd had it, but it's not a thought experiment I have an answer to.

I looked into donating my eggs in order for subsidised IVF but didn’t go ahead with it for precisely this reason. I knew that should I be unsuccessful, I would torture myself for years to come looking out for babies/children/young adults who might be “mine”. Also while you hope that you’re donating to a lovely couple who desperately want a baby and will give it a wonderful upbringing - what’s if they don’t? They might be neglectful, argue every night, abuse “my” baby.
I used to think there was no issue with donating eggs - one goes down the loo every month - but it really isn’t that simple. I don’t think I would do it for anyone other than my sister, and that would be hard enough.