My Brother In Law

[DamnitImTired]

So without too much of a back story, my Brother in Law is currently unemployed, living in a home we provide, not actively searching for employment and relying on us to meet his basic needs. He keeps telling us that he has all these 'deals' up his sleeve and they are going to bring in a whole lot of money and we just need to 'wait and see' ... We have been waiting for a few months now. When we talk to him he is so convicted in his belief in these 'plans'. I cant even really describe them to you but they involve brokering large amounts of equipment from Russia, and then the next plan will be selling products to African countries. All ideas which seem very very far from reality and actually being achievable to my husband and I who run a fairly successful business and understand that it takes a little more than an 'idea' to equal success.

Obviously the fact that we are his sole providers is an untenable situation and we have suggestion some counselling to help him overcome the personal obstacles that have resulted in him being a middle aged man with nothing. But he has told his therapist to bugger off as he is 'fine' and there is nothing wrong with him. But these are all stories for another post.

I however am battling to find the right word to describe this unrealistic belief in plans which seem to be so out of this world and out of his reach. Delusional. Living in a dream world. Out of touch with reality. I am concerned that there is perhaps a mental health issue here but how would you describe it? Its like a kind delusion - This unlimiting belief in these far fetched out of reach ideas? Right now he is busy selling a piece of furniture at a pawn shop for a couple bucks because he needs the money, but half an hour ago the conversation was about this 'deal' thats on the cards that is going to bring in LOTS of money. Help.

(Please leave out sponge, mooch, free loader etc ... I know all of those terms and am happy to apply them to him but there is something else going on here )

He sounds like he's suffering from some form of narcissism and the ridiculous grandeur that comes with it.

There's also an immaturity element which, at his age, I would consider a mental health crisis. It's like a child who thinks they're going to be youtube sensations because they've made 3 videos this year. They're too young to understand that it involves massive and endless work, possibly a bit of luck, and a lot of research/planning etc.

Why are you funding it? If he's unemployed he needs to claim benefits and the job centre can make him seek employment. He can only do this because he is indulged with free housing and financial support

Youre assuming I live in the UK... No such luxuries for the lazy and unemployed where I come from. Its hard work, living rough or being lucky enough to have family to save you from yourself. He is no 3 because no 1 seems to be 'above him' and no 2 would hurt my husband (we need to have the boundary talk!)

He is telling you stories so you won't kick him out and will continue to support him

Unless you have money falling out 9f your arsehole cut him lose so he can pursue his dream

Then the issue isn't about a lazy BIL but an enabling husband. Sort that issue and the BIL one sorts itself.

Deluded?

How long has he been like that for?

It sounds like on some level he needs to believe in his plans, as a way to keep going, like a copeing mechanism.

Can your give him a deadline for your financial support to end? (Even if you don't stick to it)

Thanks for that, as I said, I am aware that the situation itself is untenable. Im looking for the word to describe by BILs gradious dreams that seem very unreachable.

If my enabling husband stopped the support - My lazy BIL would be living under a bridge telling everyone that next week he is going to be selling candy floss to China ...

What kind of a mental state is that? Thats my question.

Is someone else encouraging his delusional thinking (is he a victim of a scammer for example) or is he just daydreaming these schemes that have no basis in reality.
If it's the former, he may need to removed from the influence of the person or people that are fuelling the fire and then may be more amenable to working out a rational liveable life plan.
If it's the latter, given that he will not engage with any councelling, life coaching, or other professional help. The solution is more complex. You can't force people to get help if they won't, unless he so delusional that decisions need to taken out of his hands (but that would be a very difficult hill to climb).

Yes - Thats what we are working on right now. Our support boundaries with a definitive timeline.

I just know that nothing is going to come of these plans, it will be everyone elses fault when they fail and there will be another pie in the sky dream that is going to save the day.

This is a UK site, so unless you state otherwise, posters are likely to give you UK based advice.
You could maybe link continued use of your housing to him getting a job, to wean him off dependency.
You and your husband need to present a united front though. It's no good you saying no, if your husband undermines that.
You could try a deadline - 6 weeks more support then he has to get a job.
Whatever you do you must say what you mean and mean what you say. Ask him what his plan would be if you weren't financially supporting him and then tell him he has X number of weeks and then he has to default to that plan.
If he has no money and no access to state support then he doesn't have the luxury of choice unless you keep giving it to him.

Delusions can be an aspect of schizophrenia. Any chance of getting him assessed by mental health services?

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/schizophrenia/symptoms/

Thank you for your rational message. You sound like someone who understands the complexity of it.
Is there someone else fuelling this? Yes, we know that there is a new girlfriend is going to be his 'business' partner.... But he has himself always had these get rich quick ideas. So it seems like there are now two of them which is just awful. My husband has refused to allow her to live with him in the house we provide because it just seems like a bad idea on top of a bad idea.

But yes, he is an otherwise healthy 50 year old man so to take away his ability to make decisions for himself would be a crazy mountain to climb.

Its very complex.

Having said all that I'd try to get him to a doctor though, because that level of delusion isn't normal.

From this article

"Since reality doesn’t support their grandiose view of themselves, narcissists live in a fantasy world propped up by distortion, self-deception, and magical thinking. They spin self-glorifying fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, attractiveness, and ideal love that make them feel special and in control. These fantasies protect them from feelings of inner emptiness and shame, so facts and opinions that contradict them are ignored or rationalized away. Anything that threatens to burst the fantasy bubble is met with extreme defensiveness and even rage, so those around the narcissist learn to tread carefully around their denial of reality."

Here's another article

I agree with you, OP, this is not normal or reasonable behaviour and it could be linked to any number of conditions and a diagnosis may not be reached quickly. The problem is that your BIL thinks he is fine - unless he admits he has a problem, he is not going to co-operate with a mental health professional. As awful as it is, your DH may need to watch his brother hit rock bottom, which I appreciate will be absolutely awful in a country with no social security safety net. Perhaps it would be better to concentrate on getting your DH some support at this time, rather than your BIL? Let him hit rock bottom and pray he sees the light?

Thanks this is helplful. Ive never considered this before. I always assumed narcissists were not very 'nice' people and on most levels my BIL is a very amenable pleasant guy who loves his family. I personally find him very immature in his thinking and humour in particular.

One of the feedback my husband got from his BILs therapist (there were a few sessions of mediation) was that he (therapist) felt my BIL was on the autism spectrum - He mentioned aspergers. Thoughts?

This is exactly my view point.

My BIL is my husbands only family and the guilt is incredible.

The up phase of bipolar is associated with grandiosity and financially wild behaviour.

Is it possible though to have never had a 'down phase' ....

He has this eternal belief that everything will work out 'tomorrow' because of this or that idea.

What did he do in the past to support himself? I'm assuming he hasn't lived with you for a couple of decades?

Narcissists are charming and can be lovely. They are also, often, delusional.

But my original post also suggested immaturity which can be a developmental or mental health-related issue. It's someone who hasn't learnt (or can't) how the world actually works.

Having said that, DH is an incredibly hard working, intelligent man with talent, experience and training in a particular thing. But in his early 20s, he gave up his job (in this industry) because he wanted to do a different thing in the industry. All fine you'd think? Except then, he sat around and spent lots of time on his own working on things but it took him YEARS to work out it wasn't enough. It was, I think, a combination of having succeeded originally without having to go out looking (he worked hard yes, but jobs came from recommendations and contacts made in early jobs etc) and the fact that PIL had never made him or his siblings work for anything.

The difference between him and your BIL is that he did then "grow up". He was always willing to work hard but he started realising he had to work smarter and also be more realistic.

He worked for us in our business.

He actually landed up living on our couch some years ago and giving him something to do in exchange for what we were supporting him with seemed like a better exchange for us.

Obviously a bad idea as he just couldnt get along with our staff and caused more damage inside our business than out of it where it can be contained as a family matter. And this is where we find ourselves now.

I have a brother who is 49 and has never worked, beyond student café pot washing type things 30 years ago whilst at college. He’s been through many many years of perpetual student, though that finally ran dry a few years back.
He doesn’t have the grand plans of your BIL.
He does have a belief that he’s above an entry level job. He has a PhD, you see.
During his work placements through uni he got the arse about being expected to make tea occasionally - despite the boss also doing it.

He probably is ASD but that’s by the by - he’s an arsehole.

What do you hope to do with a diagnosis?
You could find a label for my brother, but I don’t think it would lead to a life changing treatment, drugs or therapeutic.

In your position, I just wouldn’t listen to the latest shite. And I’d downgrade his housing. Sounds like he has somewhere rather nice in size if you’ve said no to his girlfriend moving in (watch out with that happening by stealth!). I’d cover the very cheapest housing option and leave him to it.

Pisses me off that my pensioner parents top up my brother’s benefits but he’s renting a TWO bed flat 🙄

@Testina Thanks for this. I guess Im hoping that a diagnosis would excuse his shitty behaviour a bit but also (and truthfully) Im looking for a word to describe his delusions a bit better to my husband. But I think delusional, grandiose and out of touch with reality cover it.

We are definitely going to have to scale back his lifestyle to something that balances out our family responsibility with his lack of effort to actually DO the hardwork that comes with what he gets given. Either way, I feel sorry for my husband because he will always be the bad guy in his brothers book because the guy does not have the ability to see the world in all its realness.

I comfort myself by knowing that my BIL is actually holding my husband to ransom by saying (but not actually saying) that the only way for them to have a civil brotherly relationship is for my husband to put aside his issues with the situation and carry on providing otherwise there is no relationship. And thats just not on.

I think what someone said above about cutting him loose to follow his dreams is exactly what should happen.

"I comfort myself by knowing that my BIL is actually holding my husband to ransom by saying (but not actually saying) that the only way for them to have a civil brotherly relationship is for my husband to put aside his issues with the situation and carry on providing otherwise there is no relationship. And thats just not on."

So he is being emotionally abused by his brother - in that case, I would concentrate on getting him support and cutting down financial support to something you can afford. Your DH is going to need a lot of help to get over his FOG and accept that his brother may not be able to be helped and that for him, a good life means not having his brother in it. That is going to be very hard for him to accept.

I don't mean to sound cold, OP, we are going through something similar with a relative who has gone off the rails in the last year. They have been in and out of a mental healthy unit and the thought that this might be the rest of their lives devastates me. Their behaviour has also had a terrible affect on us and it is an all round shitty situation.