My Brother In Law

[DamnitImTired]

So without too much of a back story, my Brother in Law is currently unemployed, living in a home we provide, not actively searching for employment and relying on us to meet his basic needs. He keeps telling us that he has all these 'deals' up his sleeve and they are going to bring in a whole lot of money and we just need to 'wait and see' ... We have been waiting for a few months now. When we talk to him he is so convicted in his belief in these 'plans'. I cant even really describe them to you but they involve brokering large amounts of equipment from Russia, and then the next plan will be selling products to African countries. All ideas which seem very very far from reality and actually being achievable to my husband and I who run a fairly successful business and understand that it takes a little more than an 'idea' to equal success.

Obviously the fact that we are his sole providers is an untenable situation and we have suggestion some counselling to help him overcome the personal obstacles that have resulted in him being a middle aged man with nothing. But he has told his therapist to bugger off as he is 'fine' and there is nothing wrong with him. But these are all stories for another post.

I however am battling to find the right word to describe this unrealistic belief in plans which seem to be so out of this world and out of his reach. Delusional. Living in a dream world. Out of touch with reality. I am concerned that there is perhaps a mental health issue here but how would you describe it? Its like a kind delusion - This unlimiting belief in these far fetched out of reach ideas? Right now he is busy selling a piece of furniture at a pawn shop for a couple bucks because he needs the money, but half an hour ago the conversation was about this 'deal' thats on the cards that is going to bring in LOTS of money. Help.

(Please leave out sponge, mooch, free loader etc ... I know all of those terms and am happy to apply them to him but there is something else going on here )

@notagamer
Its complicated. There was a brief window before the GF where my BIL said he would be open to receiving some sort of counselling for the things that had held him back in life ie how a 50 yr man ends up completely dependent on his (younger by the way) brother with a failed marriage, a internet dating habit and no money.

BIL went to therapy and invited by DH for a joint session. My DH went and was met with a mediation session. Turns out that BIL had been going to therapy not to work on his own life but rather that he was concerned that he needed to fix his relationship with my DH as it was broken.

My DH then went back for another session by himself and explained that the therapy he had suggested was not to repair their broken relationship. Therapist then offered my DH some tips on how to deal with people with aspergers (idk).

Like couples counselling for brothers. Not what we had in mind I promise.

I talk in we because my husband and I are in this together. Although its his brother and our finances, he does the engaging with him not me.
My DH is as I have said, conflicted. Family responsibility on the one hand offset by resentment on the other compounded by my BILs fantastical ideas that he is soon 'going to fix everything' ....

My original post wasnt so much about the situation as I know that it is not a long term ideal and has to change but rather what words (perhaps disorder) would you use to describe someone who so fervently believes in their own pie in the sky ideas. My DH and I get up everyday and work at our business, engage with people, suppliers, staff, customers, the bank etc etc and here my BIL is going to broker a deal with the Russians and we must just wait and see....

Shit therapist when Aspergers hasn’t been diagnosed and just his suspicion

so am I right in thinking that you and dh are not exactly on the same page about this?

do you have any children at home?

I totally get what you're saying about no safety net, I suspect I know which country you're in. But you cannot continue to provide a large home and salary to this man. I know that your DH will not feel he's able to cut him off completely - who would see their own family starve and suffer after all - but he needs to be given just the basics of life, ie a roof over his head somewhere where he won't get robbed or murdered, and enough for basic food and toiletries.

I have my own family member I've had to partially or completely support for years (happily at present it's partially. It's not exactly the same scenario as yours as his ideas aren't quite as grandiose and he is prepared to do some work but there have also been a series of poor decisions and a lack of grasp of reality, and there's a lot he's not prepared to do. He also seems (possibly unlike your BIL) content to live on very little. I'm almost certain it's Aspergers in his case as I'm diagnosed. I'm also younger than him. And my poor long-suffering DH is you.

You and your DH are kind people to have helped as much as you have. Unfortunately no good deed goes unpunished.

We are 100% on the same page as each other. Its ludicrous and unsustainable.
We are slowly putting our boundaries in place and have an exit plan which is obviously harder to execute than we would like because the guy is my husbands only family.

Agree about the therapist which is why I havent really paid much attention to it. Except to agree that most of us have tendencies which can be atributed to a personality disorder in their minor form but most of us manage to live perfectly normal socio normal lives in spite of our quirks. My BIL lives in a make believe world where he is some sort of mega mogul waiting for the next multi million pound deal to come to fruition.

Our children do not live with us - They are away studying.
He has one child who lives with her mother his ex wife.

I think you may be missing the point of my post.

@Scianel sounds like you know exactly where Im from.
I think you would also then know the challenges that being a middle aged man of his background bring to the situation. But do you think he thinks about that? Nope its us who do all the worrying and paying.
Its beyond crazy.

Honestly OP I think what you need to do here is lie. The business is going badly, you need to cut back where you can.

He doesnt work and you live somewhere with no benefits so your husband doesnt want him on the streets. Completely understandable, no one would want to see that. But there is a big difference between 'living on the streets' and 'big family home ready to move 3 other people into, and a full salary'.

If it's too hard to cut him off at this stage I'd be sorting out his food, essential Bill's, and a small amount of spending money, and moving him into a flat. So you're supporting him but not making him comfortable enough that he has absolutely no incentive to work. And rent the house out.

No I’m not.

Just certain details caught my attention.

fact is you’re both grown arsed asults
if you suspect a bona fideWalter Mitty style menta health illness, which you allude to - then focus needs to be on getting him help, and that might mean him living with you for longer than ideal.

if not - then there’s no ideal golden words to use. Just clear and straight to the point. Your family, we love you, we have supported you but it’s reached the point where it’s starting to look like perhaps that’s been lost sight of and we would like a very clear idea re realistic plan you will be moving on and out!

You’re allowed to not challenge this:

My BIL lives in a make believe world where he is some sort of mega mogul waiting for the next multi million pound deal to come to fruition.

We all know it’s bull, but you don’t need to persuade him of this, or argue about it. Your focus need only be on what you can financially provide.

Brother: we’re reviewing finance. We will not pay for a full house, but will pay for a flat. We will not give you a full salary for no work. You can have £x a month for 6 months, by which point Russia will be up and running. Or, you can still have the full £y but you need to do <made up job in business that keeps him away from others but gives you his time: stone breaking in the bloody yard if it has to be!> If you’d rather just take £x to concentrate on rubber gloves from Azerbaijan first.

And prime your husband to watch out for the ingratitude!

This man is a grown up. He has managed to marry, have a child, find other girlfriends… he can function. He chooses not to.

Oh and get a decent therapist for your husband!

I think, I’d be sitting with my husband and a therapist and asking, “husband, do you need me to be the bad guy? Do you need me to put my foot down and tell you what I am insisting is changed?”

For me personally, aside from the family home and full salary, my absolute deal breaker would be that - like the bloody rest of us! - he needs to give his time for that salary. And better still, his time for a fair salary. Because I’m certain you have nothing that he’ll actually do, that’s worth that money. But even if you can’t bring yourself to cut the money - bums on seats!

It's all credit to his powers of manipulation that you and DH are worried about 'being the arseholes' here OP! In what world does not paying someone a salary when they no longer work for you constitute being an arsehole? Do I need to be chasing all my ex-employers for back pay?!! I'm being flippant but I know it's not that simple......or maybe it is exactly that simple, he is not your dependant (much as he might like to be) and I can't really see how any non-delusional person could possibly he has any right to expect to be paid for doing nothing,

He would consider any 'down shift' in his lifestyle to be unreasonable and we would therefore always be arseholes for being 'responsible' for that suffering

I don't doubt it fo an instant, but if that's his definition of "suffering" he's done an even better job on yout than it seemed

You're right (again) that you've made a rod for your own backs, and only you - or rather your DH - can sort this out. Because while you may be giving BIL an easy life, I wouldn't exactly describe what you're doing as helping him at all

@DamnitImTired given what you said about your support being all that keeps the brothers relationship in tact do you really think that if one of these schemes were ever to actually come off that you would see a penny of what you are owed or your BIL for dust? It sounds like he would do a runner pretty quickly and if DH can confidently answer that question he might be able to alleviate himself of some of the guilt which keeps you in the current situation.

Been out and away from MN. But Ive read all your points and you all raise valid points which I am going to apply.
Thank you all for accomodating my issues, listening to my dilemma and setting the reality back to well... reality!
Thanks!

He sounds learning disabled to me.
Perhaps autistic but I don't know anything about that.
50 years old, has nothing, earns nothing, surely an NT person would admit something wasn't right with them or at least with their life. Unless in utter denial.

I think you can tell him you will allow him to stay in the house only if he agrees to see a psychiatrist. You should speak to your GP and ask where to go for advice and who to refer him to. You never know there may be medication to help him in life, reduce his crazy fantasies, stabilise him.

Thanks. We have tried to explore this and therapist has given an indication that they too believe this to be the case.

BIL however seems to think that there is nothing wrong with him. I’m starting to believe that the only way to intervene here in any meaningful way is to let him crash and burn and to move forward from there. I think that the enabling we are doing for him is masking his ability to deal with his own truth.

Just for those who have been following this thread. My DH and I just had a meal out and as always we end up discussing the ins and outs of this particular problem. My DH reminded me of the time my BiL had a ‘relationship’ with a woman he met on the internet. This woman sent him pics of her, she was young and drop dead gorgeous and in our opinion way out of his league. She also told him that she was so wealthy that she was one of few people in the world who had an elusive black credit card that had no limit on it (like Oprah Winfrey apparently). He believed this all and sucked it in. He arranged to meet her (a flight away) but she never pitched. It took me googling the pics to find internet stock photos of the same woman.

i can’t really remember his reaction to this all. But it didn’t stop his internet dating habit and recollecting this has made me extra concerned about what some one said earlier about someone fueling these wild fantastical ideas he has. 🙄

There are lots of ways pathological narcissism is expressed.

Basically a narcissist has a pathologically grandiose sense of self, mirrored by a totally worthless sense of self in the unconscious - so painful to experience that it must be kept out of consciousness come hell out high water.

If your BIL dropped his grandiosity he would feel so terribly worthless about his situation. So he can't drop it.

Your BIL feels completely entitled to be supported by you - as of right. You aren't doing him a favour, you are simply doing what should be done. He shouldn't have to support himself and work hard like everyone else. Instead he has this grandiose and deluded scheme.

It's enraging and easy to dismiss as laziness - but people with a narcissistic personality disorder are unwell and disabled/undeveloped in terms of their psychology, emotions and mind.

Not saying your BIL has a personality disorder - that would take a psych time to assess - but these delusions of grandeur combined with chronic parasitic entitlement certainly raise questions about it.

Not all personality disordered narcissistic people are malignant (though some certainly are).

@Bumpsadaisie that’s a brilliant answer / explanation of your thoughts. Thank you

I think you and your dh have to give up the hope BiL will ever live a useful, purposeful life whereby he supports himself.

It will never happen.

Once you have accepted that, you and your dh need to think about to what level you are prepared to support him (if at all) and then stick to it.

He can tell you his fantasist notions of wild schemes to get rich and you can say "That is not possible, it will never happen."

He will stay relentlessly who he is, the only think you can do (and should do) is limit the impact it has on your physical and financial resources.

Have you posted about this before- approx. a year ago? It all sounds very familiar.

Having read your replies, you've definitely posted about this before and got some brilliant replies on there. Sadly, lots of the replies stated that you and your husband were enabling him and it seems you still are which is why nothing has changed.