My Brother In Law

[DamnitImTired]

So without too much of a back story, my Brother in Law is currently unemployed, living in a home we provide, not actively searching for employment and relying on us to meet his basic needs. He keeps telling us that he has all these 'deals' up his sleeve and they are going to bring in a whole lot of money and we just need to 'wait and see' ... We have been waiting for a few months now. When we talk to him he is so convicted in his belief in these 'plans'. I cant even really describe them to you but they involve brokering large amounts of equipment from Russia, and then the next plan will be selling products to African countries. All ideas which seem very very far from reality and actually being achievable to my husband and I who run a fairly successful business and understand that it takes a little more than an 'idea' to equal success.

Obviously the fact that we are his sole providers is an untenable situation and we have suggestion some counselling to help him overcome the personal obstacles that have resulted in him being a middle aged man with nothing. But he has told his therapist to bugger off as he is 'fine' and there is nothing wrong with him. But these are all stories for another post.

I however am battling to find the right word to describe this unrealistic belief in plans which seem to be so out of this world and out of his reach. Delusional. Living in a dream world. Out of touch with reality. I am concerned that there is perhaps a mental health issue here but how would you describe it? Its like a kind delusion - This unlimiting belief in these far fetched out of reach ideas? Right now he is busy selling a piece of furniture at a pawn shop for a couple bucks because he needs the money, but half an hour ago the conversation was about this 'deal' thats on the cards that is going to bring in LOTS of money. Help.

(Please leave out sponge, mooch, free loader etc ... I know all of those terms and am happy to apply them to him but there is something else going on here )

I think narcissism and ideas of grandeur are the only words to describe it.

I unfortunately have first hand experience of this. My ex was exactly the same, living of me causing me to get further and further into debt as he had all these great ideas and plans to make us a fortune. Of course they never materialised and no sooner was one idea "the one" it would be soon forgotten when the next big idea came along.

There was no talking to him or reasoning with him about how out of touch with reality he was. I tried different ways, tried persuading him to get a job in order to make some money to "try and see if he could make one of his plans work" but of course working for somebody else was beneath such a fantastic mind!!

It eventually became apparent he was suffering from some really bad mental health issues and I won't go into detail of how it ended but I would certainly suggest trying all you can to stop providing for him as hard as that may be but he will never see reality if he doesn't need to.

It will be almost impossible to get help for him as, like you have experienced, he doesn't see there being anything wrong with him and until he be becomes a harm to himself or others (if indeed he even does) then there will be very little you can do.

You really have my sympathies as it it such a hard situation to be in.

I agree with JemimaTiggywinkle Look up Schizophrenia

Gosh these last two messages make me want to cry.

It really is such a terrible situation to be in.

I consider myself to be a fairly tolerant person. I understand that perceptions and understanding of how the world works differ from person but how can my BIL not see what we are seeing here? It is unfathomable and infuriating.

I keep telling myself that maybe we are too cynical and maybe one day these millions are going to roll in and we are going to be left with egg on our face always being the naysayers. He tells us that he wont divulge the details of his latest plan to us as we always shoot holes in his ideas and that he will pay us back all the money he owes us. My husband said (in an argument to be fair) that the day that happened, hell would freeze over. My BIL said our hell was about to get very cold... That was 6 weeks ago and its still pretty warm here 😂😂😂

What do you want from your post?
You seem to know he's at worst a liar who is sponging off you or at best mentally unwell.
Unless you are looking for a solution which you can/will actually implement what advice do you need?
Of course, you may just want a space to vent - in which case go for it

The other concept I read about the other day which is possibly relevant here is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Basically from Wikipedia

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[1] whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.

Basically people who are bad at a task over estimate their ability because they simply dont know enough about that task to know how bad they are.

So in my BILs case he thinks he can do something but he doesnt know he cant because he has so little knowledge about what it takes to do it.
But mostly people LEARN and get better at task but my BIL doesnt do enough to learn that he cant.
What a mess.

Is you BIL highly educated and from a fairly wealthy background which he can’t achieve himself? I wonder if, in his head, he’s trying to create these deals to go with a lifestyle and status he believes he is entitled to, but cannot achieve and certainly cannot afford?

Your post reminded me of my next door neighbour, mid 40’s who moved back in with his parents after losing his job in Europe.

He went to a top public school (you know the one), but he messed around, smoked too much dope, had an awful marriage, got a bad degree etc, but he was always about to make it big, like some upper crust Del Boy. In his case he was brokering energy trading deals with Russians or Norwegians. He would tell me he was off to Sweden for top level meetings about the next big deal, which was going to make him millions. I assume they never happened, either because he literally made them up and was a out and out fantasist or (my guess) he really was ringing up people (“my contacts”) and trying to get into the energy trading, but was a dead loss at it.

It’s really fucking hard, because honestly when I was posting above about my own brother, I was thinking, “how could you be so mean and dismissive to someone with obvious MH issues?” (by which I mean both my brother and your BIL!)

But is the alternative to your financial support really plotting his China trades from sleeping under a bridge? If my parents didn’t support my brother financially would be be in the cheapest shared house possible, on only UC? (as we have more of a benefit situation that you)

Well, maybe. I can’t say for sure.

But isn’t it possible that both of them would get a job in a packing warehouse, or delivery driving, or pot washing etc?

And my brother would seethe as he washed that he was better than this. And your BIL would consider how he could make his fortune importing rubber gloves from Azerbaijan 🤷🏻‍♀️

And they’d both pay their own fucking rent???

I understand that there can be an MH condition that makes you over confident in your woolly business plans. Funny how it’s the same condition that stops you shelf stacking in the meantime though, hey?

We (your husband, my parents) are over a barrel because of the maybe these men can’t help it. But I think there’s every possibility they can.

He sounds like a fantasist. I'm related to one as well. I get the impression that they believe "thinking" about their grand plan a lot constitutes actual work on it, which stops them from having to do any actual work. You have my sympathies.

Hi OP

You're looking for answers and that's normal.

He could have a diagnosable condition like schizophrenia.
Or a personality disorder.
He could have a learning difficulty that means he doesnt understand fully (though wouldn't that have been picked up at school?)
He could be a lying scheming shit who tells you this stuff to get you off his back (like a teenager who tells their parents they are going to study tomorrow with no intention of doing it) and he is totally playing you.

Nobody can diagnose on here. No body can diagnose in real life, because he won't engage.

So really all the research isn't going to help you. I'd stop arguing with him about his plans and why they won't work - he is never in any of the above scenarios going to turn round and say 'actually you're right, I should get a job'.

I think the only thing you can focus on is the effect on you and your boundaries. Don't argue or justify or explain. Just state that you can no longer continue with the arrangement past x date. No extensions for any deals or anything. And wish him well. And then try and get on with your life without feeling guilty. Either that or just accept he is your responsibility for life and keep looking after him. That is realistically the only two options you have

You sound like you want to understand why your BIL is the way he is, but why wouldn't he be? Something always DOES turn up to save him and right now, it's you and your DH. You're enabling his behaviour, enabling him to indulge in unrealistic fantasies while you're doing your best to figure out why it's not your BIL's fault so there's an excuse for him being this way.

As hard as it may be for you, the only answers are going to be to keep funding his lifestyle and delusional beliefs or to cut him off and leave him be. He's a grown man who is refusing to engage with anyone who tries to help him beyond taking their money and continuing to do exactly as he pleases, and the only solution for you (if you want to break the status quo) is to stop enabling it. He's going to be who he is, and he'll do what he does. It's not your responsibility.

I know it's easier said than done, but if this is the situation what else is there to be done?

Thanks for your replies everyone
@MadeInChorley no - quite the opposite. My DH and BIL come from very little. My DH and I have worked very hard and have actually had a business which failed and we have rebuilt it from scratch. Makes this all this harder to understand. My DH said today that we must be doing something so wrong to have to work so hard to have what we have (and provide for BIL through this hard work) while he sits on his couch and thinks that he is going to realise one of these schemes and pay us back all the money he owes. Obviously said which a whole bucket of sarcasm.

@Testina No I suppose the reality would be a lot better than living under a bridge. We could definitely downscale his lifestyle and provide him with just the basics in the hope that he uplifts himself but also then with the knowledge that we are not causing him to be completely without the basics needed to survive (ie shelter food etc). That would be the reasonable thing to do, I understand that.
However we would then be the arseholes and I think my DH has a hard time accepting that given the help we would still be giving and have given (yes, he needs to work on caring about that a little less). BIL has asked for GF to move in and my DH has said no which is a good assertive step (he is not a pushover by any means) but BIL has said that he will be a paying tenant and it will be a strictly landlord / tenant agreement. This is just another fantasy. He doesnt earn any money and the money he says he will earn is dependant on this 'deal' coming to fruition... Try and have that discussion with him and you want to hit your head against the wall.

@Nandocushion fantasist - great word to describe it

@DrinkFeckArseBrick yes - nobody can diagnose so this is perhaps more of a discussion that me looking to resolve this. Unfortunately I can only see this ending badly for the family relationship and I just need ears to listen, eyes to read and mouths and fingers on keyboards to share stories and thoughts to help. My DH and I have honestly helped him so much so ending up the bad person in his story doesnt sit well with us.

@RincewindsHat 100% I think we all know this. Actually implementing it is another story.

Right now my DH is in a state of imbalance. He is helping his brother which makes him feel good (who doesnt like to help) but at the same time is resentful that his brother cant even meet him half way on that help and it gone so far that it is almost now an expected status quo. The reverse is that he stops helping his brother and feels bad because BIL is going to feel it and then he is the dick... Whats the upside here? Obviously our finances would be eased slightly but its not bankrupting us. Surely there is a principle here but I dont think my BIL has the capacity to understand it that way.

He worked for us in our business

Somehow I just knew you were going to say that; overall he's really found himself a cushy number hasn't he?

You're right though - it's only cutting him loose to follow his own dreams that'll probably ever work

Fck. There is really no other way to look at this. We have absolutely created a rod for our own backs. 😂

Maybe my question should be: How do we watch our family suffer even though we know we can help them if we wanted to? Thats probably the guilt that drives us to not fix this the only way possible ie to cut him loose to follow his 'dreams'... ???

Define “suffer” though.

Is he currently in a small flat in a nice area with food money from you that is enough to include meat every day?

If so, suffer might be him only affording pasta and you paying for a room in a shared house in a high crime area of town where he’s scared to go out after dark.

There’s a lot of space between those two options that doesn’t involve “suffering”.

Honestly, I kinda hope that your BIL moves his GF in by stealth anyway, and it helps your husband reach his line in the sand!

@Testina exactly. Suffering is a very subjective notion depending on where you start off and where you end up.

In his case, he would consider any 'down shift' in his lifestyle to be unreasonable and we would therefore always be arseholes for being 'responsible' for that suffering.

He is not in a 1 bedroom flat being provided with the basics. He is in a large family home being given his 'salary' that he was earning when he worked for us.

The more I speak about it the more ludicrous it sounds.

I have the distinct impression that putting this issue aside, you just do not like this guy at all!

Having a 'fight' with another person who is likely to be as entitled as my BIL is the no 1 reason why we have said no. She wants to move her kids with her! My DH has said he cannot be responsible for kids losing their home when the kitchen gets too hot. Sounds like a recipe for disaster but I get what you are saying.

Funny enough I actually didnt mind him at all and we got on great. I dont think I really realised the extent of his dependence on us until he pushed it way past the limit of what is reasonable. His employment with us disguised a whole lot of realities.

He could have saved himself in my eyes a couple months ago. He has been given a lot of rope to hang himself with.

Jesus wept!

I know what it’s like to want others to think well of you, to care what they think.
I am also sure that your husband isn’t only a long suffering altruistic type. I don’t doubt he gets some kick from being (a) lovely and (b) the big successful man who is in a position to be bountiful, financially. I don’t mean that in a nasty way, honestly - but people rarely do something that they’re not getting something back for.

But look at this - the person who you’re worried is going to think you’re the arseholes is… a complete fucking arsehole himself!!! Of all the people not to care what they think of you.

Are you and your husband really prepared to provide a full house for free and a proper working salary, forever? Have you got a pension plan going for this arsehole?

You need to say to your husband: if you don’t stop this now, when do you stop it?

I know you posted about how to label what your BIL is (spoiler alert: it’s ENTITLED ARSEHOLE) not his living arrangements 😀

But seriously - I’d be putting my foot down now and at the very least putting him in cheap, small accommodation and cutting that “salary”.

If BIL kicks off that his brother is an arsehole, maybe the injustice of that will make the scales fall from your husband’s eyes?

You need to ask your husband; how is he going to STOP the girlfriend and kids moving in? He can’t. And is he really going to evict them? Course he isn’t.

Have, bold fuck up there - sorry!

I’m having vague recollections though…
I remember a thread ages ago where a male family member was utterly awful at the job and pissing off people who were annoyed at this person who was (or thought they were) more senior, and thus had been told to stop coming in, but getting paid. Again I’m hazy, but I think people said - at least make the lazy fucker a “security guard” so even if all he does is sit on his arse all day, at least he has to turn up and have his leisure time reduced for his money.

You would not be the arseholes or the bad guys for withdrawing or lessening your help. You and your dh have been more than generous, you do not owe him a living.
Given his unwillingness to accept help that would improve his situation so that he could live independently, I would concentrate on getting the help to allow you and especially your husband to disengage from this unhealthy dynamic and formulate a plan of action for the future.

the BIL’s therapist gave feedback directly to your DH?

What is your DH’s stance on this? Because you say “enabling” but when talking about what you’re doing it’s “we” as though both on same page

@Testina thank you thank you thank you! I hear you. Thats why talking this out helps. its a rollercoaster of feeling anger and resentment which then simmers down until the next trigger and then you talk and get angry again.

We need to sort this out.