To think that US states who want to ban abortion should be able to?

[allsorts1]

Abortion is such a fraught topic in the US. Would it really be so bad to just let the states who want to ban abortion do so, and leave it in the hands of the states themselves to decide? It seems that the Roe v Wade decision has caused a lot of tension in the context of the USA and the feeling that states should be independent and able to choose their own laws (e.g different laws on capital punishment).

Would it be a completely terrible thing for each state to decide on this, and then live with the consequences (as presumably many young people/liberals would relocate to different states where abortion is legal?). Maybe if they experience brain drain they will change their tune. People aren’t forced to live in a certain state.

Obviously I am completely aware this will have a huge negative impact on women in poverty as they have less options. So this is a key consideration and concern.

But I’m just really thinking out loud. I am very much pro-choice, but interested in views from people who understand US law and politics… could the overturning of Roe v Wade potentially be positive in that it settles the issues, states can decide, and everyone can talk about something else?

Or would it just mean that there is a gradual encroachment on women rights and then the pro-lifers start lobbying in pro-choice states and abortion rights are even further reduced. Another risk could be that abortion becomes a political issue every election in every state, and switches back and forth from being legal to illegal - causing massive headaches….

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts!

When did I “advocate” repealing anything? The draft response suggests that it will be repealed. I was just pondering what the long term impacts might be with this issue in state hands and driven by elected reps, state by state.

Probably the impacts will be all bad, but I wondered if there was any potential long term positive with regards to state independence. It’s already basically impossible to get an abortion in many states like Texas even with Roe v Wade in place. So from a strictly philosophical view, trying to look impartially at all sides, maybe removing the much hated top down ruling of Roe v Wade, which seems to be seen very much as “elite liberal interference” would take some heat out of it in a political sense for the deep red states and allow them to formulate their own laws, which could end up being more balanced and a bit like Texas plus. People seem to be forgetting that the US is a democracy, and people can vote for the people who make these laws.

Or could be a handmaid’s tale dystopian nightmare!

Probably the latter.

My title on re-read is a bit click baitey but I didn’t intend that.

Agree with those saying this will only lead to unsafe abortions, I live in a country where abortion is illegal (with the exception of if the baby must be delivered to save the mothers life). It does not stop abortions all it does it make safe abortions inaccessible to those without the money to fly elsewhere or pay the fees of a doctor in an expensive private hospital who will forge documentation saying it was done to save your life etc. everyone else is left with backstreet clinics or diy attempts or left to feed and care for children they cannot afford.

@Clymene yes my title was absolutely bloody rubbish I admit! Don’t mumsnet while half distracted getting ready for work. Oops.

Discuss the various ramifications? Nothing to discuss, it is a shit idea bought in by pale, stale and male lawmakers, along with some pretty feckin disgusting women whio support it.
Do you think women are able to move states that easily? You have no idea...

Instead of leaving it up to each state to decide how about we all keep our noses out and leave it up to each woman to decide whether she carries a child and gives birth or not.

@Hiphopopotamus philosophical debate to me doesn’t mean anything arty farty, it just means discussing the issues at hand without attacking the person who proposes the two sides of the argument. Probably AIBU is a unwise place to do so as the whole premise is about the author of the post being personally unreasonable.

For the record, I think this is an awful thing and wish there was some way to just force all US states to make abortion safe free and easy forever and ever the end. But that’s not very democratic.

Very true.
Also, what happens to the children born of women who would otherwise terminate an accidental pregnancy early?

A Catholic friend many years ago was forced to give up her baby as a young teenager, some sort of ghastly home for unmarried mothers.

I just hope she was able to reunite with her child later, when he was 18.

Very true.
Also, what happens to the children born of women who would otherwise terminate an accidental pregnancy early?

A Catholic friend many years ago was forced to give up her baby as a young teenager, some sort of ghastly home for unmarried mothers.

I just hope she was able to reunite with her child later, when he was 18.

Women will die, more children will face neglect and eventually crime will increase. I have read peer researched journal articles on just this subject but year ago and can’t remember the specifics and don’t have access to Jstor anymore as retired.

I don't think that is the case - they already have very high maternal deaths

Why do so many US women die giving birth?

I don't know if the situation has changed since BBC report above - but 2017 Texas had highest maternal death rate - higher than some thrid world countries - and I bnelive they're one of the states that wants to ban abortion.

Plus I think there have been moves to make access to contraceptives harder recenetly over there - allowing it not to be included in health care plans or something.

I suspect what will happen in what the situation was here before legalisation - richer more connected women will be able to access relative safe illegal abortions and everyone else will have unwanted children or highly dangerous illegal abortions and then eventually they'll start facing prospect of prosecution and then women who've had miscarrages will also get swept up in that.

A campaigner I was listening to last night did say if they lose Roe v Wade they will then start the campaigning state by state for better laws - they're not going to just stop. So I don't think the debate would stop at the national level either as polticians do move up from state to national level and it will still be there as a controversial subject still.

No, each state should not have the right to decide. Because abortion rights for women should be fundamental human rights. It's like saying, "okay, well, we're not going to have a national policy on slavery - every state can choose for themselves."

Abortion is NOT the same as, for example, a state deciding what its road speed limits are or how they will implement social services. It should be a fundamental right based on the belief that everyone has the right to bodily autonomy and that NO one should be forced to sacrifice their physical, mental or financial well being for someone else.

OP

Just look at the horror stories from Ireland, a country that shares a border with the UK. A flight from NI or Ireland is about an hour to a UK city.

Women and girls still died.

Women and girls still need to travel to get safe legal abortion.

It's like with same sex marriage, if you don't agree with it, don't marry someone of the same sex. If you don't agree with abortion, don't have one.

Banning abortion doesn't stop abortion.

Anyone that thinks that banning safe abortions is the way to go obviously struggles to see past the end of their nose.

This will be a disaster for women, children and the state. I can't believe such a supposedly civilised society could be so backward.

This thread misses the point. I'm personally very pro choice, I've had a termination myself. I wouldn't feel safe or comfortable living in a country with no safe access to abortion.

But the UK is a secular country, while large parts of the USA are not. In those parts of the USA, if the majority favour a ban then shouldn't the majority prevail?

If huge issues such as the death penalty vary from state to state then it seems logical that abortion could be governed similarly. I'd be personally disgusted, but I'm not a Christian.

"But the UK is a secular country, while large parts of the USA are not. In those parts of the USA, if the majority favour a ban then shouldn't the majority prevail?"

No, because the vunerable minority are usually the ones with the smallest voices and the smallest ability to impact change or defend their rights.

In those parts of the USA, if the majority favour a ban then shouldn't the majority prevail?

What if the majority wanted to bring back slavery and racial segregation, would that also be ok? 🙄

What I will say about the leaked opinion...

Alito is considered by many court watchers to be an intellectual lightweight. My guess is that Gorsuch etc. are going to hugely rewrite this opinion (can you imagine the tracked changes on that document), and try to frame the decision as one about state rights vs. federal rights. This would create the stronger position for individual anti-abortion states going forward, too, and without seeming to completely undermine all precedent (Roe v. Wade). Alito has been quoted for emotional proclamations in the leaked draft but cooler heads (eg. ACB, Kavanagh, yeah really) will temper it.

Breyer or Elena Kagan's dissent will be powerful, too.

However, the precedent of states giving power to citizens to prosecute other people for things they did in another state : it's weird. I'm not sure how that principle can stand long term. It's like, if smoking pot in TX is illegal, then should I be prosecuted if I smoked pot in Netherlands and then visited TX a week later. How can ordinary residents of TX have such sweeping powers. I am optimistic this idea will be wiped out by supreme court. It's the most enormous can of worms if left standing. A persecution charter.

I also have a gut feeling that this is seismic in American politics. It's longshot to fruition, but I would not be surprised if the west coast/CA secessionist movement makes a lot of ground on back of this seemingly inevitable ruling.

The majority aren’t being ask to have an abortion. They shouldn’t be allowed to block access to them for the minority for whom that is the best choice.

Why should anyone but the person carrying the foetus have a say

None of their business.

I can't see any argument that could change that fact.

What utter bullshit!!

But the UK is a secular country, while large parts of the USA are not. In those parts of the USA, if the majority favour a ban then shouldn't the majority prevail?

No, because there are all kinds of things that are considered "okay" according to some religious people that other people (including different religions or less conservative versions of the same religion) do not consider okay. And individual states are not supposed to be making decisions for their entire population based on the religious beliefs of a few. If your religion states that you cannot have an abortion for any reason, that is YOUR choice. You don't get to impose that choice on me. Or perhaps we should agree that stoning a thief to death is okay? Or whipping a wife? Or child marriage?

US States are big… A relocation could take you a long long way from friends & family.

The people the worst effected will be those who will suffer the most from it being banned.

Richer women can go to another state/get expensive pills etc but poorer women, disabled women, rape victims etc - they'll be unlikely to be able to access it.

It's haemorrhage/ sepsis waiting to happen and all because some self righteous apparent 'Christian' thinks it's wrong.

Yes it would be. We are living in 2022 women, all women regardless of any other factors deserve the right to choose. It doesn’t matter how careful you are, pregnancy is a potential outcome every single time you have sex and anyone who thinks otherwise is misguided. All women should have access to safe, legal termination if they decide they don’t want to go through with a pregnancy.