To think that US states who want to ban abortion should be able to?

[allsorts1]

Abortion is such a fraught topic in the US. Would it really be so bad to just let the states who want to ban abortion do so, and leave it in the hands of the states themselves to decide? It seems that the Roe v Wade decision has caused a lot of tension in the context of the USA and the feeling that states should be independent and able to choose their own laws (e.g different laws on capital punishment).

Would it be a completely terrible thing for each state to decide on this, and then live with the consequences (as presumably many young people/liberals would relocate to different states where abortion is legal?). Maybe if they experience brain drain they will change their tune. People aren’t forced to live in a certain state.

Obviously I am completely aware this will have a huge negative impact on women in poverty as they have less options. So this is a key consideration and concern.

But I’m just really thinking out loud. I am very much pro-choice, but interested in views from people who understand US law and politics… could the overturning of Roe v Wade potentially be positive in that it settles the issues, states can decide, and everyone can talk about something else?

Or would it just mean that there is a gradual encroachment on women rights and then the pro-lifers start lobbying in pro-choice states and abortion rights are even further reduced. Another risk could be that abortion becomes a political issue every election in every state, and switches back and forth from being legal to illegal - causing massive headaches….

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts!

No, nope and no again. It's not the state's choice, it's a woman's choice.

Banning abortion will only serve women who might be pressured into an unwanted abortion, which I imagine is only a tiny figure.

Also, as a side note, is this a blanket in all abortions, regardless of foetus health? Is it a ban over a threshold of gestation time or just a complete 'at no stage abort'?

The US already have shitty women's rights and imo women over there should all do something about it, but so many reject feminism. They have no maternity pay, there's still big pay disparity between men and women, they seemingly have little grassroots groups for defending single sex spaces and the public refused to have a female president. I mean, they were more open to having a black president in spite of the terrible history of slavery, civil rights and racism.

All the famous women have been good at slagging off Harvey Weinstein on twitter though. Sorry it's not very sisterhood, but I'm frustrated by the lack of concrete women's rights over there and it's not all down to the men.

Thank you for this and that definitely puts the just move option into massive perspective. I stand corrected. My just move comment was perhaps facetious. I was more envisioning that over time, young people would desert these states and the states would have a problem on their hands with regards to GDP etc.

I agree that banning abortion is fundamentally bad. I am pro choice all the way and think access should be free, easy and safe.

However, from your perspective - what about the option that people use their political power to lobby their representatives to increase access to abortion in their state? Is the US not a democracy? Or is this just completely out of the realms of possibility in many states, do the pro-lifers really have so much power?

However, from your perspective - what about the option that people use their political power to lobby their representatives to increase access to abortion in their state? Is the US not a democracy? Or is this just completely out of the realms of possibility in some states.

Because there’s a huge imbalance of power. The people worst affected by this are the people who don’t have the power. And I’m going to take a guess that the states where legislation will be put in place are likely to be the states that are also trying to restrict access to voting.

I’m sorry we’re not reaching the levels of philosophical debate that you are wanting on the intellectual pros and cons of US statehood vs federal law 🙄

Its an incredibly emotive subject and women are going to react emotionally about it. It’s terrifying to see women’s rights stripped away like this and the real life ramifications for real people will be devastating. Women will die.

While people are dealing with a lot of real feelings on this issue, I’m not sure you should be scolding us for not wanting to engage with your ‘philosophical debate’. (And the debate between states rights and federal law has been ongoing for decades now - plenty of stuff out there you can read if you choose to)

No, nope and no again. It's not the state's choice, it's a woman's choice.

Banning abortion will only serve women who might be pressured into an unwanted abortion, which I imagine is only a tiny figure.

Also, as a side note, is this a blanket in all abortions, regardless of foetus health? Is it a ban over a threshold of gestation time or just a complete 'at no stage abort'?

The US already have shitty women's rights and imo women over there should all do something about it, but so many reject feminism. They have no maternity pay, there's still big pay disparity between men and women, they seemingly have little grassroots groups for defending single sex spaces and the public refused to have a female president. I mean, they were more open to having a black president in spite of the terrible history of slavery, civil rights and racism.

All the famous women have been good at slagging off Harvey Weinstein on twitter though. Sorry it's not very sisterhood, but I'm frustrated by the lack of concrete women's rights over there and it's not all down to the men.

Abortion is a human rights issue so should not be left to the States to decide. The right to a safe abortion should be legislated in an amendment to the Constitution and therefore apply nationwide.

Imagine if the US Federal government had decided to leave it up to the States as to whether women can vote or not? This is no different except not being able to vote wont kill you whereas no legal right to an abortion can kill you.

The Supreme Court ruling- if made official- is a disgusting cowardly act that will deny millions of American women a basic human right. And it’s not that easy to move between States especially since the ones that are most liberal regarding abortion- New York and California have the highest cost of living, whereas the ones that are heavily restricting abortion and likely to ban it outright are the poverty stricken States with low cost of living. To think ordinary people can just move from say Mississippi to New York is ridiculous. It’s like saying an ordinary person in Blackpool can easily move to London.

Have you read any of the arguments from the USA? For many women it would be a minimum of an overnight trip and sometimes even a weekend to get out of their own state to a 'safe' place, for some of them involving a flight. If, of course, they could afford it, which most of them can't. Don't forget they also have to pay for the procedure. In the UK, we have no concept of the size of the USA and what distances they have to travel to get out of their own states. Texas is around 800 x 750 miles. They will only be banning safe abortion - they'll go back to backstreet butchers and women dying of infection and blood loss.

*I was hoping for some law/political/sociology philosophers to reply with some perspectives on the difference with the US states system and the impact that this issue being handled by the Supreme Court vs left to individual states to decide (in a democracy fyi) has had on the discussion around this in the US.

That perhaps the shift to individual states would take some of the heat out of the argument for pro-lifers as a lot of their outrage appears to be due to it being “decided by the Supreme Court” rather than the states themselves.*

How well do you think this same concept worked out for the women of the UK? Specifically, for the women of Northern Ireland? Who have only been permitted to legally have an abortion in NI since 2019.
Do you think that it was OK that they have had to endure the trauma of being forced to travel to in order to access basic healthcare that was readily available throughout the rest of the UK? Should they have 'just' moved over to Great Britain - instead of having free, safe, legal, local abortion in NI?

Because that is what you are arguing in favour of for the US.

People aren’t forced to live in a certain state

This is a huge flaw in your reasoning. A lot of the poorest and most vulnerable ARE forced, so to speak, by circumstances to stay where they are. Moving is a big outlay, they may have support locally, they may have problems such as drug addiction or domestic violence preventing them from voting with their feet as you put it.

Also, what lobbying power do these most vulnerable women really have? Yes ok, affluent liberals have a voice but that's not everyone who will need abortion.

As PPs have said, abortion will not go away but safe, regulated abortion will. Leaving what? Dangerous backstreet methods, well intentioned but unsupervised medications posted illegally across state lines? Children without suitable parental support?

Ah so those who have the money to travel to another state would be fine (although who knows what the law would actually be, its possible these people would still be punished), but the poor have to resort to unsafe abortions? It's an absolutely abhorrent decision if they do go ahead with it, vile.

Abortion is a human rights issue so should not be left to the States to decide. The right to a safe abortion should be legislated in an amendment to the Constitution and therefore apply nationwide.

Imagine if the US Federal government had decided to leave it up to the States as to whether women can vote or not? This is no different except not being able to vote wont kill you whereas no legal right to an abortion can kill you.

The Supreme Court ruling- if made official- is a disgusting cowardly act that will deny millions of American women a basic human right. And it’s not that easy to move between States especially since the ones that are most liberal regarding abortion- New York and California have the highest cost of living, whereas the ones that are heavily restricting abortion and likely to ban it outright are the poverty stricken States with low cost of living. To think ordinary people can just move from say Mississippi to New York is ridiculous. It’s like saying an ordinary person in Blackpool can easily move to London.

If you wanted a balanced philosophical chat, perhaps you should have chosen a title which wasn't about denying women and girls access to safe and legal abortion.

If you wanted a balanced philosophical chat, perhaps you should have chosen a title which wasn't about denying women and girls access to safe and legal abortion.

If you wanted a balanced philosophical chat, perhaps you should have chosen a title which wasn't about denying women and girls access to safe and legal abortion.

I’m sorry we’re not reaching the levels of philosophical debate that you are wanting on the intellectual pros and cons of US statehood vs federal law 🙄

Its an incredibly emotive subject and women are going to react emotionally about it. It’s terrifying to see women’s rights stripped away like this and the real life ramifications for real people will be devastating. Women will die.

While people are dealing with a lot of real feelings on this issue, I’m not sure you should be scolding us for not wanting to engage with your ‘philosophical debate’. (And the debate between states rights and federal law has been ongoing for decades now - plenty of stuff out there you can read if you choose to)

Have you read any of the arguments from the USA? For many women it would be a minimum of an overnight trip and sometimes even a weekend to get out of their own state to a 'safe' place, for some of them involving a flight. If, of course, they could afford it, which most of them can't. Don't forget they also have to pay for the procedure. In the UK, we have no concept of the size of the USA and what distances they have to travel to get out of their own states. Texas is around 800 x 750 miles. They will only be banning safe abortion - they'll go back to backstreet butchers and women dying of infection and blood loss.

How can you be ‘v v pro-choice’ but advocate for repealing the law that gives women pregnancy choices?

I don’t get it.

@AntsMarching Thank you for this and that definitely puts the just move option into massive perspective. I stand corrected.

My just move comment was a bit facetious. I was more wondering if over time, young people would desert these states and the states would have a problem on their hands with regards to GDP etc.

I agree that banning abortion is fundamentally bad. I am pro choice all the way and think access should be free, easy and safe.

However, from your perspective - what about the option that people use their political power to lobby their representatives to increase access to abortion in their state? Is the US not a democracy? Or is this just completely out of the realms of possibility in many states, do the pro-lifers really have so much power?

OP said something like "Let the state live with the consequences"

Problem with that is that it's the most vulnerable who suffer in meantime, the teenagers who can't move away from families yet, the people tied to a place for economic reasons, the disabled reliant on public benefits. They lose choice to just move away. And since when have the political powers in Mississippi, Kansas or Kentucky cared about brain drain, anyway?

No. Its an awful idea. I'm from NI where abortion was only legalised in 2019. I know plenty of women and girls who were forced to get the boat to England to get an abortion, and it was awful and traumatising for all of them. But at least they could afford to do it, many others were not so fortunate and ended up with babies they didn't want and ruined lives instead. But I'm not sure if that is an intellectual or philosophical enough level of debate for you. For god's sake, cop yourself on.

You mean they still have a choice because they could move across the country. That's like saying you could move to France or Ireland if they banned abortion here. Fuck that. Abortion is a basic right and should be available to all women, everywhere on demand.

Do you ever stop to think why abortion has been made such a big issue? Apparently it was only picked up in the 70s and 80s as a political hot potato. There are right wingers who want to dismantle everything to do with the state, taxes, etc - basically living in a wild west where a few people are rich and powerful and the plebs fight for the scraps. That's not going to attract many voters. So you use abortion as an electoral tool to get people worked up and voting for you.

If they genuinely cared about foetuses, babies and children they'd be campaigning for contraception, better welfare, free healthcare. They do the opposite.

Until v recently you couldn't get an abortion in parts of the UK!

What is does is forced women to go to where they can get one. Women here are still having to travel to England to access abortion because the services are very bad in NI.

Luckily there are very cheap flights to England and has been for many years. I wouldn't fancy living in potentially 1000s of miles away from a boarder into a state where abortion is legal. But even with it being relatively easy to get to Manchester or somewhere for an afternoon for an abortion it is a horrendous experience. Also I do worry about younger women/ girls accessing drugs online from god knows where to do it at home.

what about the option that people use their political power to lobby their representatives to increase access to abortion in their state?

The regular voters have next to no political power at all in the US. Corruption and voter suppression is rife. For example, there’s no law saying employers have to give you time off work to vote. And voting stations are usually open during business hours and are so few and far between that it’s not unusual to have to wait in a queue for 1-2hrs to vote. So many people in the service industry -which is predominantly women- cannot get the time off work to actually vote. Even when they do vote and so and so who made promises x,y,z gets elected, that politician can and often does break those promises and vote on laws opposite to what they promised. So many people are disaffected and think why bother voting in the face of no real choice?

The only promises US politicians tend to keep are those made to the wealthy contributors to their campaign funding. The US is the Wild West compared to the U.K. in that a wealthy person can literally buy a senator and have them in their pocket to vote as they dictate in return for a few million in funds for their election.

The lives of the unwanted children that women would be forced to have will be awful in many many cases leading to generations of dysfunctional adults which in turn will cost the state far more than abortions ever would.