To think gender should be seen as personality?

[AssCants]

Over simplistic maybe?

No one at all should have their life made harder because of how they present, be it goth, Disney fan, tattooed, cottage core.

But keep spaces segregated by something that is absolutely definable, and welcome diversity of presentation with kindness and unbias.

AIBU to think this would be a simpler world?

I am not sure anyone is disagreeing that gender is a personality since by definition it’s how someone feels about them self.
The issue is people thinking this is more important than biology and the feelings of someone is more important than the safety and human rights of women and girls.

YANBU. Be whatever kind of boy or girl you happen to be, like trains/nail varnish/rock climbing/fluffy bunnies, whatever, your interests don't make you male female or anything else. We're going backwards at speed, defining male or female by stereotypes that nearly none of us 100% fit into.

You seem to be implying that transgender people ally closely to extreme stereotypes of their acquired gender. That's not my experience at all.

Yanbu

Please can you explain this a bit more? I don't know what it means to be a man or woman without whittling down to stereotypes or personality traits.

This! It depresses me when you read (as I have) parents in the US who genuinely seem to think their 6yo son is a girl inside because he likes sparkly stuff or whatever. I really didn't think those ideas would be considered 'progressive' in 2022. For what it's worth, I do think some people struggle massively with their gender identity & that transitioning is the right pathway for them, but some of the stuff coming out of the US on this issue is completely regressive in its assumptions about what it means to be a boy / girl.

You've either posted about this already or copied another user who has.

Well, I don't know what sex you are, but given we're on MN I'll assume you're a woman. Do you always wear dresses and heels and full make-up, and love sparkly shiny things and fluffy things and looking after people? Or are you more nuanced than that? Like most people? It's the same for people who are transgender.
I was born female and remain a woman. I have no idea what it is to 'feel like a woman', or how distressing it must be to know there's a disconnect between your inner self and your physical body. But that's where the drive to change gender comes from, not wanting to go through years of physical, social, emotional and administrative shit because you like dancing and lipstick more than rugby and woodwork.
Maybe a lot of trauma could be avoided if we as a species were more accepting of unconventional behaviours and presentation. But it's not the complete answer.

I don’t care how people wish to present themselves day to day. The only issue is when people think that gender gives them a free pass into somewhere that is segregated by sex for safety or for fairness. Toilets, changing rooms, sports etc. It’s not transphobic no matter how much certain people say it is. I don’t even know how we’ve ended up somewhere that this is even up for discussion.

I think when people talk about "gender" they can be talking about a number of different, and sometimes totally unrelated, concepts.

There do seem to be some that are really just about something that you might call personality. In fact I think a fair bit of that is even more shallow than personality, it really is about a tribal sort of feeling that most people get over by the end of their teen years (whereas they still have a personality.)

There is also the idea of "identity" which can cohere around all kinds of things, including real things, like the community you come from, or ethnicity, or religious group. You might have an identity as the children of Asian immigrants, or as a Catholic. Some people seem to think of gender identity in that way too.

I have no idea what it is to 'feel like a woman', or how distressing it must be to know there's a disconnect between your inner self and your physical body.

Many trans people do not suffer from gender dysphoria and consider it transphobic to describe trans people as gender dysphoria.

Maybe a lot of trauma could be avoided if we as a species were more accepting of unconventional behaviours and presentation. But it's not the complete answer.

I think in our British society, we are incredibly accepting of unconventional behaviour and presentations. On the whole, people are very much ‘live and let live’ and when they aren’t, they judge in silence.

The problem only comes when people want to trample on the rights that others already have because they need them. Until people cause others a problem, they are accepted as having the same rights as everyone else.

dysphoric. Apologies, stupid autocorrect!

I have never presented in a feminine way at all, and as far as I’m concerned people can dress however they like, as long as their attire is appropriate for the situation, but presentation has nothing to do with it, so let’s just cut the crap, the whole reason women have an issue with biological males using facilities where we are forced to be vulnerable is because we know what some males are like, and what some of them do, and the fact that we don’t know which ones will do it until they do. Everybody knows and understands this, even the people who pretend they don’t

let’s just put it this way, if a man wears a dress and heels then whatever, I don’t really care, he’s not crossing any of my personal boundaries, if he comes into the changing room and starts getting undressed next to me however, he most definitely is, and the kind of man that would do that is the very last person I want anywhere near me at all to be honest, let alone when I’m forced to be vulnerable.

Well said!

Nope. All my own thoughts

This is perfect.

It's do reductive and regressive.

Be a man in a dress or a woman with a buzz cut.

Let's embrace the diversity.

Let's embrace safeguarding also.

I agree.
Eliminate the word gender from our language and just have the terms sex and personality.
No sexual stereotyping regarding acceptable personality traits or behaviours.
Men who like to wear dresses will then be welcome in the Men’s toilets.
Women who like to wear flat cap and ties will (continue to be) welcome in the women’s toilets.

You seem to be implying that transgender people ally closely to extreme stereotypes of their acquired gender. That's not my experience at all.

Really? So, if someone is born male but 'identifies' as a woman as an adult,or has wanted to be a girl since they were a child, how does that 'being a girl/woman' manifest itself? Because in pretty much every interview or article I've ever read, transwomen seem to focus on preferences for stereotypically feminine clothes, toys, pastimes etc as the signs that they are really, and always were, a woman.

Oh and YANBU at all, OP. It is a combination of personality and social/political views. Oddly enough, people with other kinds of personalities and views don't tend to demand the whole world changes laws and language in order to accommodate them (to the detriment of other people).

This.

Would it be foolish to hope for the following…

World: Thank you trans people, you have taken the word “gender” and made it a culturally transitional word to highlight how damaging sexual stereotyping has been hitherto. Thanks to you, we now see there is no need for such stereotyping and males and females can present across the spectrum of masculine and feminine, as they wish. The term “gender” is therefore abolished and, having learned from your experiment, we will now reflect the implications in law.

Trans comm: Oh, lovely. Thanks for that.

World: So back to sex based toilets etc?

Trans comm: Absolutely. As you were.

With the emphasis on PERSONAL....

Meaning the only one who it concerns is you and should remain thay way. no one else has to participate in it.

Many trans people do not suffer from gender dysphoria and consider it transphobic to describe trans people as gender dysphoria

I really don’t understand this. If they don’t suffer from gender dysphoria, how do they know they’re trans? Isn’t that the definition?

But isn't the OP suggesting that Trans behaviour is more 'personality' driven than nailed on fact. Personality itself is nuanced and everyone has elements of male and female in them, what you're own mix is just comes down to personality.

So a woman might act really mannish in some areas and present as one, but that's just her personality, she's really 'masculine'. A bit like other cliques like the OP mentioned, although I have no idea what cottage core is!

I'm not saying this is right, but at the moment, unless persuaded otherwise that's what I tend to make of the whole caboodle.