Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Girls don't like hard math

222 replies

2New · 28/04/2022 07:24

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10759687/Fury-tiger-head-claims-female-pupils-shun-level-physics-dislike-hard-maths.html

Katharine Birbalsingh, founder of the Michaela Community free school in Wembley claims that girls can't be bothered with advanced maths 😂.

Ms Birbalsingh, chairwoman of the Government's Social Mobility Commission, said: 'I just think they don't like it. There's a lot of hard maths in there that I think they would rather not do.'

When pressed on why girls would not want to do harder maths, she added: 'The research generally … just says that's a natural thing... I don't think there's anything external.'

AIBU to think that Ms Birbalsingh is talking rubbish?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
mudgetastic · 28/04/2022 11:52

A key element is people suggesting girls don't do maths

Because children believe what they are taught

Efortyjive · 28/04/2022 11:56

mudgetastic · 28/04/2022 11:52

A key element is people suggesting girls don't do maths

Because children believe what they are taught

I don't agree with her comments by the way and absolutely the trope that girls don't like x, y or z has an affect- I think there's more to it than that though. There must be something more fundamental going on as its unfair to suggest girls are weak to give so much weighting to that.

Swayingpalmtrees · 28/04/2022 12:13

So offensive, damaging and untrue! My dds love hard maths, harder the better!
I would not like her to be in charge of our school if her opinion of girls is so negative and old fashioned. What a truly stupid thing to say publicly.

PleasantBirthday · 28/04/2022 12:16

I imagine if you're in a situation where someone might plausibly ask you why girls are not reaching a standard in maths, as a head teacher you've two options:

  1. Find out what the issue is and resolve it;
  2. Say girls don't like hard maths, that's just science.
I mean 1 is hard and probably takes ages, 2 is easy and the work of less than a minute.
mudgetastic · 28/04/2022 12:17

children desperately want approval - it's hard wired biology - approval within the group means food safety and love

So no there doesn't need to be anything else going on at all

That's why stereotypes are so harmful and so hard to shift

CareBearsCare · 28/04/2022 12:19

What A-levels did this woman do? I've been thinking about what she said and the fact that she used "hard maths" makes me think probably not maths.

My dd did A-level maths (but not further) as she knew she knew it would complement her other A-levels and likely degree choice and if she needed post A-level maths then she'd happily take a module at uni.

FM is a strange subject as it's an A-level but not considered a whole one so the 4th subject for the brightest. I think that if it was considered a subject in it's own right (so one of three subject choices), there could be an increase in applicants as maths is useful for further study in many subjects.

How hard is the maths in A-level physics?

PurpleDaisies · 28/04/2022 12:21

FM is a strange subject as it's an A-level but not considered a whole one so the 4th subject for the brightest.

Since when?

RedskyThisNight · 28/04/2022 12:37

FM is a strange subject as it's an A-level but not considered a whole one so the 4th subject for the brightest

Nice bit of undervaluing an A Level there.
Who doesn't consider FM to be a "whole" A level?

CareBearsCare · 28/04/2022 12:38

Since always

People wouldn't do say physics/maths/further maths but might pick physics/chemistry/maths/further maths. People who aren't confident of top grades might pick physics/chemistry/maths because the 4th subject might lower their grades.

mudgetastic · 28/04/2022 12:38

I understand you have to do maths to do further maths ?

mudgetastic · 28/04/2022 12:39

Sone do physics maths and further maths

Specially if physics abs maths is your thing

CareBearsCare · 28/04/2022 12:39

The advice on here and my kids have heard in real life is FM is a fourth A-level subject

Schulte · 28/04/2022 12:46

Notimeforaname · 28/04/2022 11:44

I work with primary school ages children doing S.T.E.A.M based stuff and in every session we only have the same one girl.

We have girls who come to many other clubs we run, but there is no real interest from them to do the S.T.E.A.M sessions. We ask and they say its boring.

The girls will come to arts and crafts and baking (as do just as many boys)

That's not to say there arent girls interested in maths and science etc it just doesn't appeal to as many of them as it does boys, just from what I've experienced at a primary school level.

But isn’t that because their parents / relatives / society have conditioned them to think that way? By the way they talk to them, by the choice of books and toys and activities they offer these girls.

My DD reads physics books in her spare time, and she discovered her love of physics all by herself, because she’s had access to this stuff at home. If we’d limited her environment to ‘girly’ things she might have turned out differently.

PurpleDaisies · 28/04/2022 12:46

CareBearsCare · 28/04/2022 12:39

The advice on here and my kids have heard in real life is FM is a fourth A-level subject

It’s nonsense

PurpleDaisies · 28/04/2022 12:47

People wouldn't do say physics/maths/further maths

Lots of people in my degree course had done just that.

poetryandwine · 28/04/2022 12:50

@PurpleDaisies, to some extent the statement you quote is a myth perpetuated by academically selective schools and those aspiring to this status.

I recently completed a term as Admissions Tutor in an upper Russell Group but not super elite (Oxbridge, Warwick Imperial) hardcore STEM School. We required three A Levels and recommended FM as one of them. (Still do.) This is fairly typical. OTOH while Imperial makes plenty of offers on three A Levels, the received wisdom during my time - and I have seen evidence on MN more recently - was that if you present four, presumably to enhance your application, they will offer on four.

I agree that for able mathematicians FM does not carry the intellectual burden of a full fourth A Level

RedskyThisNight · 28/04/2022 12:55

CareBearsCare · 28/04/2022 12:38

Since always

People wouldn't do say physics/maths/further maths but might pick physics/chemistry/maths/further maths. People who aren't confident of top grades might pick physics/chemistry/maths because the 4th subject might lower their grades.

I studied maths/further maths/chemistry and have never had any issues with anyone thinking that this wasn't "really" 3 A Levels. And I'm pretty old.

Sounds like your own prejudices talking. Why should Maths + FM be of less value than (say) English Lang + English Lit ?

CaptainThe95thRifles · 28/04/2022 13:05

How hard is the maths in A-level physics?

It's really not hard at all. I didn't take maths to A Level but I did take physics, and the maths was really nothing to write home about. I did more maths in subsequent bioscience degrees, to be honest.

Dixiechickonhols · 28/04/2022 13:07

My DD is 16 at a state grammar. Predicted an 8 in maths and physics.
She isn’t doing maths or science A levels.
Another poster hit nail on head with girls achieving highly in maths tend to be high achieving across board. My DD is doing better in humanities and enjoys those more so those are her choices. Her friends are same.
The standard of maths and physics teaching has been woeful. The physics teacher has a psychology degree and is a disorganised shambles, DD has pretty much self taught it. Maths teachers - her current one is good but leaving (to trade bit coin?!)Trainee one on a Wednesday has answers written down and constantly needs to look, can’t answer questions and has poor spoken English eg DD had a medical apt and I was worried at her missing maths - don’t worry is Mrs X We don’t learn anything in her class. DD is going to school sixth form so why sign up for A levels with poor teachers. The subjects chosen she likes and respects teachers.

Confidence. The school cream off 30 and call them set 1 and make them do extra maths gcse. No setting in any other subjects. Knock on is fact the other 120 pupils think they aren’t good at maths even though predicted 8 or 9. She said to me that she was surprised kids with worse grades were doing maths and science A level as she perceives them as her weaker subjects.
Medicine doesn’t need physics the friends thinking of medicine are doing biology chemistry and another subject of choice.

WalkerWalking · 28/04/2022 13:08

🙋‍♀️ I like hard maths. As do the 70% of girls at my school (for clarity, I'm a teacher) who choose A level maths.

Herhereherhere · 28/04/2022 13:09

I did FM (and 3.5 other a-levels). I agree that it is ideally better studied as a 4th. Just because otherwise it is a lot of maths, putting your eggs all in one basket so to speak. A levels give you a chance to see the subjects where Maths is actually used in the workforce and help explore those interests. So subjects like physics, economics, chemistry, computing and then tailor future Maths study around your interests. So are you more interested in stats, pure, applied etc. I think it helps make better choices to do a wider range but it is still very much a full A-level!

luckylavender · 28/04/2022 13:10

maths

Dixiechickonhols · 28/04/2022 13:12

When I was at a girls school they made us all do a combined science to encourage girls to do science. All 3 subjects but 2 GCSE. No separate sciences. I got highest results in Chemistry and won an award - I can remember being gobsmacked as I had no idea I was considered good whereas I knew I was good at history etc - different feedback styles? I never contemplated science A level as I hated maths, didn’t realise how good I was and fact I hadn’t done full gcse in separate science meant I was at a disadvantage for A level. So their scheme backfired.

WalkerWalking · 28/04/2022 13:12

Fwiw further maths is much harder than any other A Level. I see how some people don't view maths and further maths as fully "two subjects' worth", but that's because for the most able pupils, it's the single maths which is "easy" for them. Single maths and chemistry, or single maths and physics, or single maths and history would all be easier combinations than single maths and further maths.

CaptainThe95thRifles · 28/04/2022 13:12

The flip side of the situation described above is that when I was at school, the teaching in the science department was so strong that there were unprecedented levels of girls doing science A Levels for a number of years. At one point, 75% of the cohort were doing at least one science A Level. The numbers taking maths were lower, probably because the teaching in that department was pretty mediocre.

It's not that girls are innately prejudiced against maths and science, but that they take subjects they are likely to succeed in, and that means picking subjects that have good teaching, as well as natural ability and enjoyment of the subject.