to think that some people just don't get poverty?

[Ohsoworried]

I've seen a few posts recently where people earning a fair bit of money (think around 100k a year) are complaining that they're struggling with money, don't have enough etc. I DO understand that it is all relative but equally, for people like me on a low low wage, in insecure housing, wondering how I'm going to pay rent, having to stop paying in to my pension for the extra £30 a month etc it does make me cringe a little. Things are a little better for me at the moment but it has been hard and my secondment is up soon so back down to low pay. When I left my abusive ex I was living in poverty. And when I mean poverty I mean in a refuge, no job because I had to relocate, no money for a deposit to rent etc. It's the choice between being able to downsize your house, not go on holiday for a couple of years, make sacrifices but still live comfortably etc, compared with not knowing if you'll be able to afford your bills. Of course I'm generalising and I'm sure there are people out there who are genuinely on high wages but have high mortgage payments etc who are struggling. I do sympathise. But I don't always think this is the case...

YANBU I am 62 years old and, as a result of a long marriage to a knob who didn't want me to work when the children were small and then left when they became teenagers, leaving me in my early 50s, I, having not worked outside the home for nearly two decades (used to do the knob's books and general admin for his sole trader business) found myself in the position of only being able to secure low grade administration jobs and, at the age I was, not finding any employer willing to train me or help me to maximise my chances of advancement. I now find myself still on only £20000 per year which I supplement by working a second job at the weekends to bring my income up to around £23000. I have RA and Fibromyalgia and have been unable to afford to have any heating on at home since the end of February. I have recently given my notice on my present job as, though I absolutely love it and it is my dream job in many ways, I can no longer afford the long commute which is about to become even longer as the office is relocating next month. When asked my reasons for leaving I cited the fact that I couldn't afford to take on board the move as I am struggling to pay the bills as it is and both my line manager (Company Director) and the HR Coordinator in the meeting immediately said that they "understood completely" as they had had to turn their cars onto economy mode which was something they'd neither of them ever had to consider doing before this massive uplift in fuel costs. I sat there totally gobsmacked, not knowing how to react to their idea of "complete understanding". I just went home, put on several layers of clothes, filled a hot water bottle and cuddled under a blanket to read my book by candle light as usual!

Or they completely understand your situation and reasoning and stated they had to do things differently as a result. They didn't say we are in poverty and have to change our cars to economy. This is the thing. People who state their issue, struggle or changes they had to make due to costs doesn't equal they are saying they're in poverty or their issues outweigh yours or you don't have it as bad as them... You can completely understand someone's reasoning and give your own experience with a situation without it being a slight against your circumstances.

What should they have said back? Clearly it was a discussion between you all and their situation is different but they made changes not that they're worse off than you.. I can't see what they said was wrong by giving their own perspective during the conversation.

This sums it up really. So many people unable to listen, they just want to talk about how they would have managed better.

People in the UK have no concept of poverty. Even for the poorest your children have free access to education, health care, a roof over their head, clean water and will never starve even if the food comes from food banks. The poorest in the UK live a life of unimaginable luxury to a huge chunk of the world population and yet they complain on a website accessed by their little hand held computers about how bad they have it in comparison to those in the UK on higher incomes.

That is very far from the truth. Hundreds of thousands of people do not in fact have a roof over their heads, but move from shelter to car and so on. Food instability is huge, the fact that you are unaware of this speaks to your ignorance rather than any fact. And no, not all children have access to education or healthcare, you can’t get either of those things if you’re moving constantly or not have no one to take you.

maybe read up a little before you make such wild claims.

@pixie5121 I was born with Familial Adenomatous Polyposis. If left undetected and untreated it's almost guaranteed to give you bowel cancer by 40. My mum was diagnosed with it just before she turned 40 and she was told that basically it was too late to save her bowel but if she had it removed then she would be okay. She just turned 51 this year but in those 11 years she has had multiple operations (I think about 7) and she has died on the operating table a few times. When she found out the genetics clinic tested all her children, parents and sister as there's a 50/50 chance of her passing it on to her children. And they wanted to know where she got it from. My mum's was a random mutation so luckily neither of me my grandparents have it and neither does my auntie. All of her children except 1 has the condition and even though I am the oldest from my siblings I have it but not as bad as those siblings who do. But it's awful knowing that my children could have inherited it from me and you can't normally get tested until you are 12 although I have been told that they can test younger sometimes.

If your H is the sole earner and has only just squeezed into the higher bracket, maybe. But the OP is talking about £100k salaries, which should be able to easily absorb an extra £3600 per year costs without tipping into poverty. You would have to be servicing a very high level of over indebtedness or have incredibly poor financial literacy if you couldn't afford McDonalds on that income.
100K is 5500 per month net, assuming no pension contributions or student debt. For comparison, it is less than a family of a teacher and a nurse bring home, but no one would say they won't notice an extra £3600 expense a year.

Sarah shorty "Emotion is what gets attention. None of the facts matter as long as you can get your point across with crying and wailing. This is often followed by categorising the person you've taken offence to and lumping them in with other types of people you don't like. All of these things are exactly what a child does and quite frankly if you insist on acting like a child, you'll be treated like a child."

Wrong thread?

Really it isn't anyone's business the other people live.
You don't necessarily have to live it for understand.
Pp's who do mention struggling on 100,000 usually have a large mortgage and crippling childcare costs with a very responsible job.
I'm not well off however I don't judge or resent people who are.
There are worse things in life than poverty.

Yabu I’m afraid. I’ve observed this human condition before, relating to things to be worried about. If you have a full and busy life, with lots to do, and worry about- the window cleaner not turning up is a minor irritation. If there isn’t a lot going on, this can be very upsetting, but others would judge that you were getting upset over nothing. The point is, you feel upset, and that matters. Or a better example could be a high powered career woman leaves work and starts running the pta. The stress over raffle prizes with be laughable to other people, but nonetheless, that person is upset. Relating to money, it’s no one else’s business to decide someone else shouldn’t be bothered if they have to cancel something. My point is their upset, disappointment and frustration is real. I’ve had no money, I’ve had money. Having some money doesn’t mean you can afford everything, and having none actually makes life very simple, there isn’t the angst over choosing where funds should go if there aren’t any. Then, I never imagined life with money brought its own trials, as I assumed everyone was living in clover and their lives were easy, but I found out that isn’t actually the case.

100K is 5500 per month net, assuming no pension contributions or student debt. For comparison, it is less than a family of a teacher and a nurse bring home, but no one would say they won't notice an extra £3600 expense a year

Where do you get your facts about how much a nurse and a teacher earn? This sounds like pretty senior salaries.

I don't really understand your point then. If you're saying a rich person would be no less dead than a poor person, well, indeed, but we all die. However that process is considerably eased if you have sufficient money to pay for the best treatment and care, to afford the significant costs of death, and to know your family is provided for.
I have no difficulty in grasping your obvious wider point, that there are factors outside of income that impact quality of life. However, this thread is about income and poverty. Not income and illness, death, bereavement, happiness or being 'well off' in the looser sense.
I've been on both sides of this and I can categorically say that while money doesn't necessarily bring happiness, it assuredly wards off poverty and the additional misery that being poor adds to lifes other problems.

Looked at our school reported salaries and local trust published vacancies - took average published pay for the teacher and band 6 vacancy for the nurse.

Someone on £100K is also likely to be pretty senior, even in very well paid industries.

I didn't say wouldn't notice, I said without tipping into poverty. There is a huge difference between a high earner cutting back on luxuries and being so 'poor' you couldn't afford Macdonalds for your children. And I don't care what jobs people do, if they have an income of £5500 a month, they can afford a Macdonalds meal for their child if they so wish, unless, as i said, they do not know how to manage their money.
Its not great for anyone to face increased costs, but people who are under the misapprehension that those on UC are financially better off than them, should expect to be corrected.

And I don't care what jobs people do, if they have an income of £5500 a month, they can afford a Macdonalds meal for their child if they so wish, unless, as i said, they do not know how to manage their money.
Depends - if your childcare is 3K/month and your rent is 1.5K/month, not sure it is that comfortable at all and there's much left for eating out (been there, done that, went for years without haircuts).

Poverty both in the UK and overseas is defined.
The big issue is how people deal with it. Poverty is not new. It is not as bad as it used to be, but that is scant comfort if you are both poor and not coping. That stands true in a first or a third world country.
Having worked with poverty both in the most deprived areas in the UK and in poverty afflicted countries overseas, Attitude is the principle coping factor.

Anecdotes are all very well, but do they contribute to the debate?

Godwin's rule is to the time on a debate before someone mentions Hitler. What is the name of the rule before someone mentions "Africa"?

Me and my wife have a household income of £60k a year. We have a 2yr old in nursery and have moved to a nicer area in may 2021 - nice house, 2 car family (we both commute to work about 20 miles each way every day), cars are not new or flashy but both less than 5 years old.

When we moved in May 21 we were comfortable, had some excess money etc (around £500 a month). Now with the sharp increase in just about everything - but significantly energy (risen by £150 a month) diesel (risen by £165 a month) and nursery fees (risen by £90 a month - nursery bill is now £1140) and food cost increases we are now struggling. These increase have come within a very short timeframe of 10 months (since July 21)

After household expenses for essentials only we now have a grand total of £27 per month left. Out of this we have to do day to day living, buy any clothing needed, pay for any repairs/maintenance to house/cars. If we need a new tyre now it is a financial emergency. All social activities also need to come out of this £27 - meaning my child misses out on a lot. we can only do activities that are free.

We have had to stop my pension contributions to try to alleviate the pressure - our 2 yr old regularly needs clothing. We do shop in charity shops as much as possible.

From outside we look to be doing well, inside we are struggling to pay bills and panic if the smallest unexpected expense arises. We have no social life, no subscription tv (only freeview), we don't even have home broadband - just our phones.

It is scary how fast we have gone from being comfortable to wondering how we will put food on the table through no fault of our own. The price increases sadly have not been reflected by a wage increase.

We knew when moving things would be tighter than usual for a while when we moved but could never have predicted diesel jumping by such an amount or gas/elec doing the same.

I know we may look to be prospering to a casual observer but in reality we a fighting to survive and are genuinely worried about losing our home.

I don't really understand your point then. If you're saying a rich person would be no less dead than a poor person, well, indeed, but we all die

OK so I'll try and break it down even further since my point misses you.
Person A brings home 110k a year but due to a family members special needs and dire medical condition they are living off 20k after tax and all exoenses etc are taken out. The 20k is for bills rent and food. But sick person is alive.

Person B brings home 20k but has no ill person to worry about. Their money pays food rent and bills too.

If person B had a sick person too, they can't afford the extreme medical required their sick person probably doesn't survive. But they still have their 20k.

So the fact someone with less money doesn't have the finances to help a dire situation they would just not be able to pay for it. Person As option is to live on limited funds or allow their sick person to die. But they aren't allowed to call it poverty because they have expenses they don't choose and very little take home pay. But person B on the same pay without a sick person (or if they was one wasn't getting treatment) on the same money.

This wouldn't be a common scenario but to highlight there ARE differing circumstances. I'm sorry if that too is too confusing for you to comprehend but I've tried to spell it out.
Have a great day.

There is a huge difference between a high earner cutting back on luxuries and being so 'poor' you couldn't afford Macdonalds for your children.

But those people likely aren't saying their in poverty just struggling compared to how it used to be for them... Or struggling to afford the extra treats and things. They more than likely haven't said they're living in poverty because they couldn't afford McDonalds...

The cost of living crisis is hitting everybody. I would love to get a gardener, but private school fees have gone up so much around here that people can barely afford the stick for their 'vote Labour' signs. We're all turning down our heating and elbowing each other out of the way to get to the front of the line in the second hand uniform sale. Some people can't afford double glazing and cycle to work to avoid the expense of a second car. I've switched to the 'essential' brand at Waitrose and given up buying organic (please don't judge me!). How anybody can fail to sympathise is beyond me!

@Popgoestheweaselagain I am always happy when people like that complain and feel the pinch. I would even encourage it so they get even more enraged..Hopefully they may consider this when going to the polling booth. From what I can see, the poor suffer in silence and just put on another jumper, says it's not so bad, my grandma lived through ww2 and we never used to have central heating. But woe betide the person who suggests that Mrs 'my DH earns 150k a year and I earn 90k and we own a semi-detached house in Surrey' gives up her highlights, her range rover and her Waitrose habit.. or that little Posey can't go to prep school like her big brother Timothy. After all, she and her DH both went to private school and they have worked hard all their lives ! *Clutches pearls in anger and faints.

Exactly, but no one is allowed to talk about it unless they're on the breadline. I do think it's important to acknowledge that by people having to cut back it will affect others. Eating out less, less beauty and hair appointments, shopping on a budget rather than with independents etc will have an impact, mainly on lower earners. It's okay to sneer and say well you're fine anyway (when they aren't actually pleading poverty anyway)- but people spending on 'luxuries' add a lot of the economy and to communities. As is more and more of the money is going to be leaving local areas to go to big companies or the government, that's a shame.

But them not spending their money on stuff like that anymore does affect others. The gardener could have many people drop their services, where does that leave them? A business they have built up perhaps because its a hobby, maybe they don't have the skills or qualifications to earn the same elsewhere, or perhaps their circumstances mean the hours suit them and a regular job wouldn't. Where are the school places going to magic from for the children priced out of private school? It's also a myth that all parents are rich, some scrimp and save because their child needs smaller classes or whatever to be able to tolerate school and get an education; for others they have bursaries which would no doubt be cut. It also won't magically level the playing field either. All of these cut back do affect others- we have become a horrible little country in many ways. Ew.

The cut backs people make only affect people because of how society is structured and how we provide for each other via a capitalist libertarian economy

No one should be forced to spend savings that they might rather save for their future / retirement / big wedding . No one should need to spend on what they don't want to stop others starving

OK. So your point is that a rich person with a sick relative can be poor if they're paying for medical care. Whereas a poor person doesn't have that expense because their relative has had to die. So theyre in the same position? I think that may be stretching the concept of equality a little beyond its capacity to be honest.