to think that some people just don't get poverty?

[Ohsoworried]

I've seen a few posts recently where people earning a fair bit of money (think around 100k a year) are complaining that they're struggling with money, don't have enough etc. I DO understand that it is all relative but equally, for people like me on a low low wage, in insecure housing, wondering how I'm going to pay rent, having to stop paying in to my pension for the extra £30 a month etc it does make me cringe a little. Things are a little better for me at the moment but it has been hard and my secondment is up soon so back down to low pay. When I left my abusive ex I was living in poverty. And when I mean poverty I mean in a refuge, no job because I had to relocate, no money for a deposit to rent etc. It's the choice between being able to downsize your house, not go on holiday for a couple of years, make sacrifices but still live comfortably etc, compared with not knowing if you'll be able to afford your bills. Of course I'm generalising and I'm sure there are people out there who are genuinely on high wages but have high mortgage payments etc who are struggling. I do sympathise. But I don't always think this is the case...

Did people not see that closing the global economy would have knock-on effects. It was obvious to us.
As for jobs, I've had 4 companies go bust owing monies, my own dad took what he could get in the 80s after his industry struggled with downturn after downturn.

I suppose when you've experienced no money, yet managed to come up with a plan, it's difficult to comprehend not being able to rescue oneself.

Yes. There are all avenues to do that. Whether they would do that is a completely different question.
Even more so for your middle class daughter. Yes, it is a numbers game with admissions, but many children around the world would give their right arm away to suddenly find themselves homeless on a British street. I know I would at the time when I was around your daughter's age.

I think most disabled people are able to claim without much bother.

The actual data suggests otherwise.

No, I wasn't saying that poverty was the same everywhere. I was saying that even extreme poverty exists in the UK, some posters were arguing that it doesn't. It absolutely does and they probably walk past it every day.

@forinborin That May well be the case and poverty in say India is on a different level to poverty in the UK - but for the purpose of this thread surely it's about poverty in the UK

The UK is a very insular society on the whole and a lot of people are in a situation where they don't have family or close friends to help or can't ask family and I think there are huge expectations- no one seems to like using the expression these days, I can't afford that. Look at the numbers of younger people booking ridiculously expensive stags/hen dos and weddings and just presuming everyone has the spare cash for the odd £300 upwards without it affecting their month. Poverty has many causes, inadequate amounts of reasonably priced housing in vast swathes of the country, ludicrous levels of secondary tax (council tax etc) , high utilities but poor weather so heating needed large parts of year and in many cases too, large amounts of debt to service and sometimes through circumstances/poor choices-- continuing to have lots of kids etc , despite insecure situations and feckless partners. I'm not aTory at all, but sometimes personal choices and decisions do play a part.

There are specific risks to being at the lower end of an unequal society even where basic needs are covered. It's the inequality itself that's dangerous, and the consciousness of one's own position near the bottom of the hierarchy. The experience of being in that position.

Except it doesn't as 2.9 million claim PIP, for a start. I'm one of them. A small proportion of claimants had problems, but most don't.

@pixie5121 Totally agree with you--as my post before yours said . The problem is the Tory's blasted the mantra'no such thing as society, only the individual' - and so it has come to pass.

It can be much harder to be poor in a rich country than be poor in a country where most other people you know are also poor.
The UK has a very civic minded population with many volunteers who give their time to distribute food to the poor and also other forms of support. But the biggest expense is still housing and bills. The ironic thing in a society like the UK is that the poor often pay more or the same as the comfortably off despite earning much less. My mortgage is £400 lower than my office cleaner's rent (and she has higher commuting costs too). She told me she tried to move to Kent to save on costs but found that it cost the same as staying in London due to commuting costs.She is a single mum who works 2 jobs to support herself and her son. In a poorer but more communal society, extended families live together and are able to share costs, and older family members would also provide childcare etc.

I think poverty at any age in life but particularly in childhood leaves a lasting mark on those that have been through it. Not on a high salary now but also not at the food bank recently, still worry about money and empathise completely.

I had a situation recently where there was a big family do elsewhere in the country and the train would’ve cost nearly 500… they did t understand why we couldn’t go and that was comfortable family. People can rarely see the world through a lense that isn’t theirs.

I agree, however the UK poo pooed the family and family planning.

This is the result.
This is a statement blaming it's stating a factual repercussion.

This isn't..🤣🤣
Arrg edit function needed.

I refer you to the tribunal statistics.

To me poverty is an inability to adequately meet your basic needs from your income. So no, there is no way people on £100k are living in poverty. Their high mortgage, credit debts, and other optional commitments may leave them short of money for essentials, but they have the choice to make changes so this is not the case.

other optional commitments may leave them short of money for essentials, but they have the choice to make changes so this is not the case.

Its not always optional. They can't use money they need for lifesaving treatment on something else. So they can be struggling greatly but even if they struggle to pay rent, buy food and meet utility essential bills they can't be in any form or degree of poverty because they should make better choices about who's life to save.. Or something? If they didn't have the money to use on medical, they would still be in poverty and the person the funds are using for it may not be here. Still doesn't help them pay the bills.

Yes your example is correct for some but people in this thread want to argue that if you earn 100k on paper you can't be struggling because you made bad choices.. When it's not always a choice. You can't make a blanket statement about someone's situation based on how much they have coming in when you don't know where it's going.

The OP complained about how unempathetic "rich" British people are to her and not understanding her struggles

But yet not on the streets lining up in a soup kitchen type poverty that many people are saying is the definition of poverty now so perhaps the OP wasn't that hard up in true poverty after all.. Unless again we want to go back to the fact that it's relative which is what many were trying to say.

Again, that doesn't represent a majority of PIP claimants. Remember, 2,900,000 million claim PIP. Less than 300,000 had to take their case to a tribunal to overturn a decision of which 70% were successful with 30% unsuccessful.

A clear majority of disabled people do not have to take their case to a tribunal at all as they are correctly awarded their payments in the first place. I'm one of the almost 3million who have.

I agree, however the UK poo pooed the family and family planning.

How did the UK poo poo family and the family planning. From what I understand, the nuclear family construct was borne out of young people flocking to the city during the industrial revolution and then they married each other and started families and this broadly worked out well as other than events like the great depression and world wars, society became wealthier and most people did fairly well under this set up. We are reverting to record inequality however, and the nuclear family setup is undeniably more expensive Which is why a lot of young people are living with parents for longer to save up.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/

Well apart from they don't need to buy a washing machine at all do they. In fact owning a washing machine is something that only a tiny proportion of families around the world do. Fifty years ago not many working class families had their own washing machine even in the UK. Certainly no one needs a brand new one for over inflated prices when they are available free and cheap second hand. This kind of entitled thinking is a huge problem. And the stupidity of getting into debt for things like furniture and not understanding compound interest...these are the real problems, not an absolute lack of money

@5128gap I absolutely agree.
Poverty is NOT relative when you can't eat or have a safe roof over your head.
I bet the ones stating otherwise are exactly the people who have never been in that situation.

What we consider a decent living standard or poverty level cash wise is indeed different and relative all over the world.

But when you go hungry, where is the "relevance" to what?
Someone in UK skipping meals due to lack of money is poor. Someone dying of malnutrition in Africa is poor.
Let's grade the levels of food poverty then? 🙄
Or how about just stopping the nonsense that someone in a big house having a tight month and not being able to keep horses anymore might be "relatively" poor. Because that's insulting, frankly!

It's the cause of the poverty. long term street homelessness is due to mental health problems and addictions and abusive childhoods. It's not due to a lack of money as such. It's due to a lack of ability to manage your life. Not the fault of the individual by any means. But it's not the case that people in the UK who ar able to take advantage of the free education, benefits etc on offer to all, are ever at risk of long term homelessness.

The supply of cheap second hand washing machines isn't great as ( unlike many consumer goods) they tend to be used to destruction . Especially ones that get delivered to your door

Well apart from they don't need to buy a washing machine at all do they. In fact owning a washing machine is something that only a tiny proportion of families around the world do. Fifty years ago not many working class families had their own washing machine even in the UK. Certainly no one needs a brand new one for over inflated prices when they are available free and cheap second hand. This kind of entitled thinking is a huge problem. And the stupidity of getting into debt for things like furniture and not understanding compound interest...these are the real problems, not an absolute lack of money"

It's not difficult to imagine how this might happen. Most people in the UK today do own washing machines and cannot easily manage without.

There are no free washing machines available near me. I've just checked. You might be able to purchase something extremely ancient for around £50 - which may or may not last, and there's delivery/collection to pay for if you don't own a car. I'd imagine even that initial outlay, peanuts for many, might be beyond the poorest and in desperation they consider the more 'manageable' instalments.

Also the cheap washing machines have a terrible epc rating so you will pay more in the long run in the form of higher electricity bills. I just bought an A rated fridge, and an A rated washer dryer. Both costing £1k each.My idea is that I will save money in the long run so its worth it? But poorer people would buy a cheap washing machine or a second hand old one, and pay higher bills in the long run. Either way, you have to spend money

YANBU, OP. I’m lucky never to have been truly poor, the worst I’ve experienced is being on a strict budget in order to pay bills, having to shop at the cheaper supermarkets, buying things on offer as they were going out of date, etc. But I’ve always had a home and something to eat.

I have a friend who grew up in a wealthy family and she was talking about the cost of living recently and I realized that she genuinely doesn’t know what being on a tight budget is! It’s not her fault, she’s been lucky and has also worked hard as an adult to ensure that her children also have a privileged upbringing. She’s simply never had to budget to pay an electricity bill, IYSWIM. So I agree that some people simply don’t understand poverty, because it’s outside their realm of experience.