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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Scott Morrison didn’t say anything wrong?

158 replies

Organictangerine · 21/04/2022 21:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-61171449.amp

I heard this being discussed on Shelagh Fogarty this afternoon. I don’t think he’s said anything wrong. What do you think?

OP posts:
WildCoasts · 22/04/2022 09:37

Harridan1981 · 22/04/2022 09:31

Well exactly! So why would he find it so hard to understand them?

I suspect he spoke badly. I understand the sentiment of being glad your child doesn't have extra challenges in life (it's challenging enough already). None of us want that for our children. The way he put it is such that I would prefer my disabled child not to hear it it in case they think they are a burden on me, which they're not.

I wouldn't be basing a vote on this one gaffe though. I'd look at overall policy.

GADDay · 22/04/2022 09:42

Dylan Alcott is the Australian of the Year. He is an amazing tennis player and advocate. As a wheelchair user he WAS offended by this weak, unliveable, dishonest man. Google Grace Tame - an autistic sexualising abuse survivor. She was Dylan's predecessor and has very strong opinions on our PM. His policies and personal politics are offensive, so it is unsurprising his comments are given short shrift.

Australians are pissed off. It's bubbling and boiling - these comments are the tip of the iceberg.

GADDay · 22/04/2022 09:43

GADDay · 22/04/2022 09:42

Dylan Alcott is the Australian of the Year. He is an amazing tennis player and advocate. As a wheelchair user he WAS offended by this weak, unliveable, dishonest man. Google Grace Tame - an autistic sexualising abuse survivor. She was Dylan's predecessor and has very strong opinions on our PM. His policies and personal politics are offensive, so it is unsurprising his comments are given short shrift.

Australians are pissed off. It's bubbling and boiling - these comments are the tip of the iceberg.

Sorry autocorrect is having a field day.

DetMcNulty · 22/04/2022 09:46

@WildCoasts - his policies are pretty awful too.

And his comments to Grace after her very moving and inspirational speech were in such unbelievably bad taste, nothing he says could surprise me. How he made it to PM is beyond me, I wouldn't even employ him in a marketing role, he's even bad at that considering that is his background.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 22/04/2022 09:50

So do you use a wheelchair yourself? As you clearly think the commonly preferred term that most people who do use them want, is problematic. What term do you want to use instead?

Ok, I'll answer this as truthfully as I can, and I apologise in advance if any of it sounds like a cop-out, but I can only talk within the terms of reference that I encounter it.

Firstly, no, I am not a wheelchair user myself, which is why when I do encounter this phrase being discussed I will offer input if I'm asked, but I take a back seat because it's not something that is directly relevant to me as an individual. Why I am still required to participate in that discussion though, is that I have partial executive oversight of an organisation that provides a service to a specific demographic within the general public, and many of those individuals are wheelchair users, so it is important for us to have some agreed, preferred terminology that we use in our organisations publications, both external and internal.

I note that you use a generic 'we' when referring to a preference for the term 'wheelchair user'. What is interesting about this to me is that as an organisation we have used that term before now as that is commonly agreed to be the preferred language throughout our discipline, however, what actually prompted the discussion was our own service users questioning the term themselves. We have more than one 'regular' who believes it is possibly outdated, and since we continually review all of our publications, we felt that it was necessary to include that specific term in the group that we discussed.

As of yet, nothing has actually changed, but it probably will be included in the terms we put to consultation of our service users. What will happen in practice is that if a majority of our service users express a preference for that term above any other suggestion, then that's the term we will continue to use.

My personal thoughts on it won't come into consideration, and as for my suggestions about alternatives, I don't really have any viable ones that aren't a total mouthful, but again my personal dislike of the term is purely because the dominant word in the phrase is 'wheelchair' and the only reference to an actual human is in 'user'. We've gone through similar consultations with other terms, some of which are still in use despite being objected to by some people. "Service User" is one that isn't universally popular, and I completely understand the arguments against it, but when we consult the actual people that term refers to, they invariably come back with a majority favouring 'Service User' over any of the other proposals. When the time comes, if the same happens with 'wheelchair user' then it will stay, and as I said, my personal thoughts about it are irrelevant and I'll continue to use it myself in the appropriate setting.

GADDay · 22/04/2022 09:52

Our liberal/national coalition:

Has sat back whilst women have been raped and abused in parliament.
Stood against the legalisation of LGBTQ marriage.
Would sell their grandma's for a lump of coal - flood, fire, devastated reef, extinct koalas ARE our reality.
They endorse continued decimation of first nations culture, rights, representation. The Uluru Statement has been renewed upon.
Horrific treatment of refugees. Imagine being locked in a dingy facility for 9 years all because you were fleeing persecution.

So pretty much - if you are brown, poor, disabled, can't speak for yourself or you don't make a buck you are marginalised /fucked in Australia.

We are tired of this. So the comments in isolation probably seem innocuous. It's the sum of the parts.

WildCoasts · 22/04/2022 10:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

TalkingCat · 22/04/2022 10:18

I'm Australian. I am voting Labor BUT I genuinely don't see that Morrison, as much as I loathe him, said anything wrong. To say you've been "blessed with good health" or blessed with healthy children is now somehow wrong?? It used to be that when you were asked if you knew what you were having (boy or girl) it would be "we don't care either way as long as it's healthy". I suppose we can no longer say that any more, either?

And what of when you are describing a just born baby when you say it "has 10 fingers, 10 toes and is healthy". Can we no longer say that, either, it case it offends someone who has a child with 11 toes? Or only 9 fingers?

Even my Labor member mother who HATES Morrison with a passion I haven't seen her hate anyone with before, said she really didn't say anything wrong.

Though, admittedly, if it helps Albo get elected, I'm quite happy to run with it. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Innocenta · 22/04/2022 10:18

@XDownwiththissortofthingX I do very much appreciate that you answered me on a difficult topic, thank you. Many people choose simply not to respond on issues like this, and I respect the fact that you did no matter what we disagree on when it comes to specifics. :)

WildCoasts · 22/04/2022 10:26

TalkingCat · 22/04/2022 10:18

I'm Australian. I am voting Labor BUT I genuinely don't see that Morrison, as much as I loathe him, said anything wrong. To say you've been "blessed with good health" or blessed with healthy children is now somehow wrong?? It used to be that when you were asked if you knew what you were having (boy or girl) it would be "we don't care either way as long as it's healthy". I suppose we can no longer say that any more, either?

And what of when you are describing a just born baby when you say it "has 10 fingers, 10 toes and is healthy". Can we no longer say that, either, it case it offends someone who has a child with 11 toes? Or only 9 fingers?

Even my Labor member mother who HATES Morrison with a passion I haven't seen her hate anyone with before, said she really didn't say anything wrong.

Though, admittedly, if it helps Albo get elected, I'm quite happy to run with it. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Do you have any disabled children? If not, try to imagine them hearing someone say how fortunate they were not have disabled children. Like their parents are unfortunate to have them because they have some additional challenges. It doesn't bother me personally but I don't want my child to hear it.

Innocenta · 22/04/2022 10:30

As a follow up (and I'm aware this is very much getting into specifics, and off topic), I know this probably isn't something you can disclose, but I am so curious as to what term the person who thinks 'wheelchair user' is inappropriate would prefer! Because at least here in the UK, 'wheelchair bound' is still very commonly used in many informal and colloquial contexts; my experience with many PWD here is that we do largely agree that getting away from that is a decent shared priority.

Side note: in my own informal writings about the topic in social media settings, I tend to say 'wheelchair user' initially as it's the most specific and preferred term, but I do very frequently then go on to use 'chair user'. Of course in itself, that phrase would be confusing (able bodied people use chairs too!), but in context of a paragraph about wheelchair users, it is clear what I mean. This diction reflects my actual language about my chair irl / verbally, and is less clinical and medical. I don't have any problem with alluding to myself as a user of my chair, because...I do use my chair! My chair is a tool for me.

I am actually not self pushing as I don't have enough strength (which would also incline others to see me as 'bound', perhaps), but I still feel that the role of the chair in my life is clearly one if enablement and expansivity. I would be 100% housebound without my chair, and leaving aside the latest period of Covid restrictions as a CEV individual, it is entirely down to using my chair that I've been able to: travel abroad, present at conferences, go to restaurants, go to the theatre/concerts, visit museums and other places of interest, meet friends anywhere other than at my own house, be at family weddings... The benefit to me is so huge and undeniable that it feels completely...askew from reality to take issue with the idea that I am using my chair, and therefore am a user of it.

(I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own emotions, just trying to explain a bit more as your response was so thoughtful!)

Innocenta · 22/04/2022 10:31

Sorry, that was for @XDownwiththissortofthingX :)

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 22/04/2022 10:34

@Innocenta

Do you mind if I PM you a response to your last post? I'm happy to continue discussing with you, but there are certain things I can't really get into on here because of confidentiality concerns and such.

Innocenta · 22/04/2022 10:54

@XDownwiththissortofthingX sure! Please do

Samcro · 22/04/2022 10:55

Harridan1981 · 22/04/2022 09:30

Dude, you literally started this thread asking opinions. Yet those which are different are silly? If someone with a disabled child, tells you that his opinion on having a disabled child is offensive to them, who on earth are you to say that it isn't? And that they are being silly?

i have been a parent of a disabled child for more than 20 years. I think having lived it I am "silly" for being offended by crap like this.
people like my dd are othered enough.

Organictangerine · 22/04/2022 11:11

Samcro · 22/04/2022 10:55

i have been a parent of a disabled child for more than 20 years. I think having lived it I am "silly" for being offended by crap like this.
people like my dd are othered enough.

All you are going to do is alienate well-meaning potential disability allies, not create a world in which very subtle nuance is free from even the most tenuous association with abelism. The in-fighting and obsession with terminology is taking up so much public conscience that the actual needs of disabled people, like me, are pushed to the back in favour of ‘getting the exact terminology right’. Which is impossible anyway as it’s subjective. I would be offended if somebody told me my disability ‘made me, me’ and ‘enriched my life’ in any way. Every day I wake up wishing I was healthy.

OP posts:
Discovereads · 22/04/2022 11:54

Good points @Organictangerine
The obsession with terminology is ultra performative. No one can speak ad hoc perfectly all the time. They’re going to say things in a clumsy fashion now and then. It’s sad that the focus is all on how he said things, not on what are his campaign promises regarding meeting the needs of disabled children.

MargaretThursday · 22/04/2022 12:58

@TalkingCat
And what of when you are describing a just born baby when you say it "has 10 fingers, 10 toes and is healthy". Can we no longer say that, either, it case it offends someone who has a child with 11 toes? Or only 9 fingers?

My dd (#2) was born without a hand, so I think I am allowed to comment on this. Yes, it is a phrase that is still extensively used, including on greetings cards for new babies and things like that. It's been said to me with all three of my children.
The only time it did upset me was when I was pregnant with #3 and someone I know very well asked if I was having a boy or girl (I didn't) and responded with "well as long as they have all their fingers and toes". They may have gone away and kicked themselves, but they showed no sign of realising that was inappropriate.
But in that case it felt personal. Because it was a specific case. I totally understand that people in general (as I and as dd would also agree) would prefer their child to be born with all their fingers and toes.

I think he'd have been better to use the term "lucky" but actually I don't really see that what he said was that bad. I have come across a heck of a lot worse from people who have foot in mouth.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 22/04/2022 13:16

I think he'd have been better to use the term "lucky" but actually I don't really see that what he said was that bad. I have come across a heck of a lot worse from people who have foot in mouth.

You don't see it as that bad because the othering of people with a disability is so ingrained into society.

Ask yourself the following, which of these would you not have an issue with being said, or saying yourself:

I'm blessed/lucky not to have black children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have homosexual children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have female children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have children with disabilities.

I bet (or rather hope) you wouldn't dream of saying the first three but apparently there are no qualms with the fourth. Why?

A child with a disability doesn't make a choice about it, just like they don't chose their race, sexuality, or the sex they are born as (please for the love of the donkey don't jump on that as a signal to start the trans debate here)

QuebecBagnet · 22/04/2022 13:22

I’m on the fence about this. Dd is disabled. I love her to bits and am glad for her every day. But do I wish she wasn’t disabled? Of course I do. Not really for me but more for her. I am worried sick about her future, I’m not sure she will hold down a job, move out of home, etc.

Her life would be so much better and easier for her if she wasn’t disabled. And her disabilities are minor compared to others. But I think she would consider herself to be more “lucky” if she wasn’t disabled.

Unblessed · 22/04/2022 13:26

I was born with only 9 fingers. I was teased/bullied throughout school because of it. Maybe my parents didn’t feel blessed with me and had to wait until my physically perfect sibling was born a couple of years later?

But suspect my parents may disagree. I think they liked and loved me and - I hope - felt
blessed. I was capable in other ways.

So maybe be aware - whilst eye rolling and saying “you can’t say anything these days without offending someone” - that you can actually be causing hurt. I suspect many of you are fine with this, as your comments suggest - but please just be aware that there are real humans reading this - who have been made to feel imperfect all their lives. It’s not nice.

Organictangerine · 22/04/2022 13:27

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 22/04/2022 13:16

I think he'd have been better to use the term "lucky" but actually I don't really see that what he said was that bad. I have come across a heck of a lot worse from people who have foot in mouth.

You don't see it as that bad because the othering of people with a disability is so ingrained into society.

Ask yourself the following, which of these would you not have an issue with being said, or saying yourself:

I'm blessed/lucky not to have black children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have homosexual children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have female children.

I'm blessed/lucky not to have children with disabilities.

I bet (or rather hope) you wouldn't dream of saying the first three but apparently there are no qualms with the fourth. Why?

A child with a disability doesn't make a choice about it, just like they don't chose their race, sexuality, or the sex they are born as (please for the love of the donkey don't jump on that as a signal to start the trans debate here)

Because being black, gay or female isn’t physically painful, life limiting or restrictive in terms of basic day to day life

surely that’s obvious?

OP posts:
Innocenta · 22/04/2022 14:02

@Unblessed What if someone finds forced positivity hurtful? That isn't just a thought experiment, there are plenty of people (including me) who do.

WhatNoRaisins · 22/04/2022 14:07

I don't think with the luck or blessed it's so much the children in of themselves but the life you have as a family that makes you feel lucky. With race it's more a case of I'm lucky my children don't face racial discrimination than I'm lucky they're white for example. No one would want extra difficulty for their children.

Many individuals with disabilities and their families do have more difficult lives because of disability and not all of this is due to wider society, the symptoms and effects are very real. I'm not convinced we can pretend otherwise.

RantyAunty · 22/04/2022 14:13

Worst leader.
He never answers a question. He just waffles on changing the topic.
I don't think he tries that hard to hide his contempt for certain groups.