Horse and dog incident this morning

[DrHildegardeLanstrom]

Had quite a scary experience on our morning walk this morning.
My dog and I have crossed this field and the others with horses on many times and have never had any incidents. I have been around horses all my life and understand how they can be inquisitive. My dog is under full control on a short lead and is well behaved around horses.

This morning he was with me on a short lead as normal, and my DD was with me. The field had several horses, all grazing at the bottom of the field well away from the footpath route. As we got halfway across, two trotted over and reached us in no time.
One came up and sniffed my dog very close, which scared him so he barked. The horse instantly turned around and kicked him, luckily a glancing hit which appears to have done no damage.
We turned around straight away however the horse kept trying to kick us (I really thought I was going to be kicked) and was blocking our path. My DD was very scared, so I sent her to run back to the gate and managed to get there myself despite being pursued by the horses.

There is no damage done, however I have never experienced such a thing in 30 years of horse experience. The horse clearly felt threatened by us being there and came across the field.

AIBU to email the yard and make them aware?

My partner is from the States. He couldn't get over how picky I was when we were looking at properties in the UK with some land (I have horses). Just couldn't understand my problem. Anything with a public right of way across, or adjoining the fields, was ticked off the list.

I explained, but have shown him this and he gets it now.

I am a country dweller, born and now stay there. That's why I know that horses (especially) and dogs are luxuries.
I do know of some working dogs, but most horses around here are owned by city folk who pay for liverly and pop out for a canter at weekends.

This reminds me of having to send my dog away as I was trying to catch in my horse who decided he wanted to stamp on him. All the other geldings did the Angels from Doctor Who thing, I nearly shat myself. Luckily the dog was the dive into a hedgerow type and buggered off. My horse never got over his dislike of dogs.

I remember watching a bloke sprinting across the field one day, followed at some distance by the whole herd. Fortunately he managed to get to the fence, throw his dog over and follow it. There isn’t a PROW in the field.

Given the damage to my leg after a run in with a horse, I would only stick to edges of fields.

Oddly enough, the common motorist won't actually chase you on or off the footpath once you stay out of it's way

They might run you over on the pavement though, as happened to one couple recently near where I live, while out walking their dog. The dog was fine but both people had life changing injuries.

Can i safely pressume the driver did not take offence and set out to drive over the couple?
I know of a couple of cases where this did happen but for some strange reason even sticking the car in reverse did not merrit a murder charge.

Hope they take it seriously and move the horse. Its fine having horses in there, but not one that is aggressive towards dogs.

I wouldn't ever put mine in a field that will be accessed by walkers by a public footpath. He's an ass about dogs, although he was chased by one so understandable. He'd probably be OK if it was on a lead, but not worth taking the chance and I don't trust everyone to keep their dog on a lead like you. He's kept safely out of the way though, no public access in his field.

Neither you nor the horse did anything 'wrong' imo, the footpath is there for using, and you had your dog on a lead, and the horse lives there.

It's unusual for a horse to attack with its hind end as a pp said, it's normally charging, teeth and front legs, they would only generally use their hind legs to kick when cornered or when spinning to run and kicking out to increase the chances of escape.
As well as the spooking/protection aspect of a horse defending against a predator (your dog) horses do sometimes play, and may pursue in the pursuit of play and buck/leap around towards what they're wanting to play with, which of course gives the impression that they're following or attacking - no less dangerous if you're in that situation, but the horse may have genuinely not had aggressive intentions, may have never shown aggression before and therefore the owners/livery unaware that they have a problem.
My horse does this sometimes (and he's old enough to know better!) And will get excited seeing me and charge over bucking and jumping in the air and continue near me if I walk across the field, he's not being aggressive though, he's playing through excitement because I mean food - some horses are fed by randomers and so may react in the same way as effectively they've been trained that this behaviour = reward.

All that said, if I were in this position as the owner I'd want to know so I could move my horse or fence away from the footpath to prevent it happening again and me being liable for damages, unfortunately though that's not always an option for everyone.

Given the damage to my leg after a run in with a horse, I would only stick to edges of fields.

The thing is, legally speaking, you are supposed to stick to the footpath or the right of way, which often goes bang through the centre of the field.

@Maverickess you say it’s unusual for a horse to attack with their rear end - not always. Mine prefers the double barrel approach rather than reading or biting. She is good around people though - it’s only other horses she’s a sod with

@Grumpsy they definitely often attack other horses by kicking as their hindlegs are their strongest part, but I've not known a horse turn its back on something it considered a threat such as a dog, as it leaves them vulnerable to attack, in the wild animals such as big cats and wolves would jump on a horse from behind. PP says her horse does though, so some must acquire it as a behaviour.

@Thatswhyimacat we’ve been out hacking with an agressive dog, and she turned on that to try and boot it. Luckily (for the dog) it had some sense and its owners Managed to catch it before she launched it into space. With her I think it would be her favoured approach to anything she took a disliking to.

I’ve been round horses all my life and worked on stud farms, a fair few horses and also the young stock often prefer to put their bum to people rather than bite them.

I've had two who prefer to attack (anything, although neither would touch a human intentionally or without serious provocation) with their hind end. I've known / worked with many more who do the same. It's really not as simple as "horses attack with their front feet". Domestic horses are subject to different developmental pressures and guidance compared to wild (or rather feral) horses, so their behaviours may not match what might be expected.

I would want to know if it was my horse, so I could check she wasn’t unwell or there isn’t another issue going on that caused that. It’s strange behaviour from horses to just come up and sniff random dogs!

This is where I was coming from, in an open field where a horse can flee from a predator, that's the instinct I've seen and heard about being invoked the most.
I've certainly seen cornered horses use their hind ends (or restricted from going forward by rider handler) and use them in squabbles over food or pecking order between herd mates, or even swing and kick out at a suspicious object before fleeing from it - I guess the idea there is to incapacitate long enough to get away.

But IME (which I accept isn't universal but I do have professional experience, qualifications and 30+ years around horses of all types so on par with others also giving opinions) horses usually use their hind ends on each other in a scrap, or to give them a headstart when they are fleeing from a perceived threat or in play/high jinx, and don't pursue to attack unless cornered, defending a foal/mare or food source, or ill/injured.
I've had rear ends turned on me a lot in stables - because they can't flee and therefore need to defend.

I can see that horses that have not had much opportunity to flee when threatened, but have learned that turning hind legs and kicking is the only way out of trouble could translate that into herd and field behaviour and react that way in any situation that makes them feel threatened, or learned it by 'winning' encounters where hind legs have worked and fleeing hasn't/been possible.
But I'd still say it's the exception and not the norm.

Are people really so removed from the food they eat that they think the primary concern of farmers should be making their fields into unimpeded walks for people who can't even be bothered to gain a basic understanding and respect of the land they are walking across?

Scrowy did you actually read the thread? The horses are very unlikely to be food animals, and the OP did nothing wrong. (And if farmers did make PROWs into impeded walks, they'd be breaking the law...)

There's so much victim-blaming on this whole thread, it's insane.

There used to be a field of miniature shetlands behind my house owned by a breeder. Been there as long as we have. Over 20 years with no problems then lockdown came and people suddenly started to use that path a lot more ( we have a lot of paths in our area and this is not one of the nicest routes). Every day there would be several people taking their kids out to see the ponies and feeding them treats despite notices being put up asking them not to. In the end the owner had to get rid of them because they started just this behaviour with people who didn't feed them.

The point about it being unusual to attack with the rear end is that when they kick with the hind end they are not on in full attack mode. They are likely to kick out, but that's it as long as the object bothering them takes the hint. Some people are talking about horses "attacking". One poster even claiming that a group of walkers kept going into a field and kept being attacked... I can't help but wonder what they classed as an attack and whether it was a bit of treat mugging from a horse that got fed by walkers...

In a serious attack, which fortunately is quite unusual, the horse will come at you front on. Striking out with front legs and teeth. They will knock the object of the attack over, might continue striking when they are on the ground, might kneel on them. I had a pony who would do that to a dog, but no dogs were allowed in the field. If a walker had that happen to them nobody in their group would go back over the next few days for more!

The point about it being unusual to attack with the rear end is that when they kick with the hind end they are not on in full attack mode.

I mean, you can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. Domesticated horses have a lot of learned behavioural traits - and they've been domesticated for long enough for some of those to be bred into them too. Some horses - possibly a minority, but also possibly a significant minority - default to attacking with their hind end, and I'd defy anyone to see it happen and not realise that it is an attack. Not a single kick at a stressor behind them, but a premeditated turn, reverse, repeated kicking, cornering and chasing the target in reverse. If you haven't seen it happen, fair enough, but it can and does happen.

I don't think it's a good idea to over-simplify equine behaviour and it's potentially pretty dangerous to minimise types of behaviour on the internet where the readership isn't well versed in reading horse behaviour and body language. Horses can be dangerous whichever end they're attacking with, and nobody should presume that they know the intentions of an unknown horse when it starts exhibiting undesirable behaviour.

How do horses have anything to do with food production? In what way do they contribute to working rural life?

Lots of drama on here!

I have horses and land with a footpath running through. I’d definitely want to know if one of ours was behaving like that, it’s highly dangerous. We’ve noticed our horses approaching walkers a lot more in recent years, and I think it’s largely due to some people feeding them and petting them. The people feeding don’t stop to think that they might be causing other walkers problems.

We tend to fence our footpaths off as much as possible, with sheep netting so that dogs can’t get into the field. The one field where we can’t, we use in high summer, when the horses go out at night and come in during the day, so there aren’t many walkers around, certainly not the kind that treat people’s horses like a free petting zoo.

We had one livery with a 17.3 horse that used to run at people. The owner stuffed treats into it and didn’t take notice of our concerns. We gave them notice.

Its a tough one. You can’t expect horse owners and farmers to not use fields with footpaths on, but people have a right to use them. We are actually thinking of selling our field with the busy footpath because it’s a worry.

I think it’s very normal for horses to spin round and buck/c
kich out with their hind legs. Particularly if spooked bu a dog or shooed by a person. I hate walking through fields of horses that I don’t know. I know two highly experienced horse riding instructors that were killed in a field of horses.

Ignore the people claiming you did something wrong; you clearly didn't and also, you have experience with horses and are clearly not some sort of anti-horse nutjob.

When I was a teenager a number of people had similar experiences on a public right of way through a field which the owner had rented out to someone who used it for six or seven ponies and one was extremely bold and would approach and jostle people, with or without dogs. I think it was because it had previously been kept somewhere where people would feed it, as it would actually nip at people's coat pockets. and then of course if someone panicked or a dog reacted defensively, the horse would then kick out. Eventually the horses were removed.

(We also once came across a mare next to the path who was halfway through giving birth to a foal. Which was a miraculous thing to witness but not ideal for the poor mare who had nowhere quiet or safe to take herself off to.)

Yes I did. That response was to a different poster not the OP. The quote function for some reason wasn't working when I made it and the quote I was responding to didn't show up which made it unclear but anyone reading the thread properly would presumably have been able to follow the conversation at the time and realise that.

And farmers aren't breaking the law putting stock in their fields and not fencing the footpath which is the suggestion I was responding to.

I thought I'd jump into this thread to get some advice from experienced horse owners.

A few months ago my DH was out running with our dog (a small English Springer Spaniel). For context the dog is very calm around horses and trained to sit or stand patiently when riders go past on the local bridle ways. The dog is always on a short lead when DH runs with him (no extending/retractable leads ever used or those waist belt leads) this means he is always under very close control and runs right beside DH. DH was following a new route and entered a field with a footpath running across it - signposted, clear marks on the ground and a stile at each entry/exit points. The field was L-shaped but the footpath runs in a straight line without going round the corner into the bottom leg of the L (IYSWIM). There are trees on the boundary line obscuring what is in the other part of the field. As DH got about 2/3s of the way across the field two horses ran out (round the corner) behind him. They ran straight at his back and started wheeling, bucking, baring their teeth and kicking out. They did not make contact but were very close to him and whinnying/blowing air at him. He was pretty frightened as they started circling him and our dog. Dog did not react aggressively but virtually jumped into DH's arms. DH kept going at a slow jog, whilst the two horses circled around him, and he climbed the stile. Even then the horses did not retreat but continued to stamp at the ground and whinny after him.

So my question is - was it the running that provoked this reaction? It definitely felt aggressive, but they didn't actually make contact with him. Is there anything DH could have done to prevent it? Bearing in mind that he couldn't see the horses (or they see him) until he was a long way across the field. What should he physically do in this situation? Shout, wave his arms, walk, stand still?

I hasten to add he will not be running into that particular field again.

The running might have wound the horses up a little. They might have thought that there was something scary that had made your husband run. Sometimes they play spook and run being silly. Again, it would be worth mentioning to the owner of the field/horses (and hope that they’re someone sensible enough to listen!).