Four year olds behaviour so lost

[Queenie6655]

Hello all

Wondering if anyone has been in my shoes

4 year old and three month old

Last few weeks the 4 year old has been so badly behaved
Hitting and slapping me in public
Refusal to do things
Demanding stuff in shops

I'm not the strictest and I fail miserably with sanctions (eg no to treats as a consequence etc)

Any tips please please

@Siameasy

Yes definitely try to do stuff just you and her lots of positive messages maybe take her for lunch or dinner just because you love her my DD loved a greasy spoon lol still does

Love this

We have two hours of games each day just the two of us
Football, cards painting etc
Loves it !!!

Please don’t just do stickers or ignoring or rewards without acknowledging the pain your daughter is in. She suddenly has to share the love of her life (you), and she can’t do anything about it.
You do need her to stop the behaviour long-term, but you are raising a future adult, not just a present-day child. If all your strategies are doing is making her stop the outward behaviour, she’ll still feel the feelings but won’t have an outlet for them. This is how children grow into adults who can’t express their anger or jealousy in a healthy way and turn it all inward instead.
She’s demanding stuff from you because she can’t have your one to one attention while the baby is there. Make every effort you can to get someone else looking after the baby for as long as possible, as often as is practical, and then do something with your daughter that she really wants to do, and doesn’t involve you buying her anything. Enjoy her company, let her forget that she’s a big sister for a while, and demonstrate that her place in your heart is rock solid. Then you can do as many sticker charts and naughty steps as you like but she’ll still have got the important message. You might even find the behaviour improves on its own.

@ChekhovsMum

Please don’t just do stickers or ignoring or rewards without acknowledging the pain your daughter is in. She suddenly has to share the love of her life (you), and she can’t do anything about it. You do need her to stop the behaviour long-term, but you are raising a future adult, not just a present-day child. If all your strategies are doing is making her stop the outward behaviour, she’ll still feel the feelings but won’t have an outlet for them. This is how children grow into adults who can’t express their anger or jealousy in a healthy way and turn it all inward instead. She’s demanding stuff from you because she can’t have your one to one attention while the baby is there. Make every effort you can to get someone else looking after the baby for as long as possible, as often as is practical, and then do something with your daughter that she really wants to do, and doesn’t involve you buying her anything. Enjoy her company, let her forget that she’s a big sister for a while, and demonstrate that her place in your heart is rock solid. Then you can do as many sticker charts and naughty steps as you like but she’ll still have got the important message. You might even find the behaviour improves on its own.

Absolutely!!!!

And thanks for taking the time to post this

So far we have daily two hours for games and sports just the two of us

And one hour swimming per week

Agree with everything PPs have said

• be consistent
• make clear what is expected in every situation (not 'best behaviour ', it doesn't mean anything)
• stop buying her stuff on any outing and make clear that you will not be buying her stuff
• find out what parenting classes are available near you because it's easier to stick with all this if you have support IRL
• totally remove yourself from her if she hurts you physically, until she calms down. Let her know what she has done wrong and that she must apologise
• bring back 'nice smiley mummy' afterwards, and still don't buy her anything!

Also, she really really needs you to be in charge.
You keep saying that you are soft, but you need to reframe that. Consistent, fair, rules that she understands will make her feel safe and secure. Mum rewarding hitting and tantrums shows her that she is in charge, and that is scary for little children: you are being much kinder and more loving if you stick to your own rules.

@Ionlydomassiveones

You are paying her bad behaviour too much attention. When any young child throws a tantrum it’s time for less attention not negotiation or capitulation. It’s grey rock, cold face, ignore, no eye contact, no verbal and if necessary you hold her hand - or just lift her up and just remove her. No anger, no emotion, no telling off. That’s it. No bloody sticker chart, no bribes or naughty step. You simply ignore. If she hits or bites, you might say a sharp ‘NO’ and gently restrain but nothing else.

When the bad behaviour stops, you return to smiley lovely mummy.

It’s very simple. You totally ignore the bad behaviour (sometimes physically picking them up or holding them) but praise, cuddle, love the good.

They soon learn what behaviour makes them feel good and which doesn’t.

At the moment you’re rewarding every single bit of bad behaviour with attention.

If an adult was having a meltdown after a number of huge and traumatic life experiences would you grey rock them?

And you sound like you're doing a wonderful job, btw. Both your DC are lucky to have you!

OP, it's not easy, but this too shall pass!

@Tigofigo
Probably not, but you also wouldn't be responsible for teaching an adult what is and is not acceptable behaviour. And there wouldn't be many people on here recommending that you put up with another adult hitting and screaming at you... So I'm not sure I understand the comparison.

I wonder what's going on for you emotionally when she has a tantrum? That might be worth exploring.

It sounds like you feel real discomfort and possibly fear? Hence feeling desperate need to buy toy to make it end.

I wonder how you were treated as a child when you expressed "negative" (but very normal) emotions? Were they accepted with love as part of who you are as a human?

I wonder if this also played out in your old relationship? You weren't allowed to express anything negative as it had bad ramifications.

You've done amazingly to get out of that damaging abusive relationship. That can't have been easy. And even though your little girl was just a baby she will have been impacted too.

You might try sitting with the feelings next time, notice them, notice how they feel in your body, but don't be hostage to them. Eventually you will be able to hold space for your daughter's emotions, without feeling the need to make that discomfort disappear by giving her what she wants, or pushing you into shouting etc.

I'm telling you this as I SO wish someone had told me when my DC were younger. I got so angry when they had tantrums and negative behaviours and it took me years to allow them their emotions. The key for me was understanding my own feelings.

So I think I once read on here about talking to the baby to make the toddler feel important.

So for example is DS2 started crying as we were leaving the house I'd say to the baby 'i know you are crying DS2 but I'm just helping DS1 with his shoes, I'll be with you in a second'. Obviously this is not for the babies benefit but for the elder child's benefit as you are reassuring them they are still important and that the baby doesn't always come first. I'd also do things like say, before I feed DS shall we have a snack together or let's do our painting and then I'll go and change your brother. Basically whenever you put them first, emphasise it and make it obvious! The baby doesn't care. We found this helped a lot.

It's absolutely great you have some 1:1 time with her already but adjusting to a new baby is really hard. We had this a lot when my second was born. And as the PP said, it was when baby was about 3 months old. Novelty has worn off 🤣🤣.

I'd also echo what others have said, thet are lots of strategies you can put in place, but we have all been there. The important thing is to reflect on it and change it for the better. Nobody ever gets it right first time every time!

I found it really helped to say things to the baby like 'i know you are hungry but I'm just with DS1 right now and I need to help him with his shoes_

@Tigofigo

I wonder what's going on for you emotionally when she has a tantrum? That might be worth exploring.

It sounds like you feel real discomfort and possibly fear? Hence feeling desperate need to buy toy to make it end.

I wonder how you were treated as a child when you expressed "negative" (but very normal) emotions? Were they accepted with love as part of who you are as a human?

I wonder if this also played out in your old relationship? You weren't allowed to express anything negative as it had bad ramifications.

You've done amazingly to get out of that damaging abusive relationship. That can't have been easy. And even though your little girl was just a baby she will have been impacted too.

You might try sitting with the feelings next time, notice them, notice how they feel in your body, but don't be hostage to them. Eventually you will be able to hold space for your daughter's emotions, without feeling the need to make that discomfort disappear by giving her what she wants, or pushing you into shouting etc.

I'm telling you this as I SO wish someone had told me when my DC were younger. I got so angry when they had tantrums and negative behaviours and it took me years to allow them their emotions. The key for me was understanding my own feelings.

Hit the nail on the head

And oddly the hitting me sparks flashbacks of her dad lashing out

So need to deal with that hugely

Every single post here is so so true and so helpful

Don't feel as lost know or as mortified

[quote missymousey]@Tigofigo
Probably not, but you also wouldn't be responsible for teaching an adult what is and is not acceptable behaviour. And there wouldn't be many people on here recommending that you put up with another adult hitting and screaming at you... So I'm not sure I understand the comparison.[/quote]
The difference is an adult that may hit or scream at you has - or should have - infinitely better communication tools, a much more developed brain, and impulse control (most of the time - those that didn't learn otherwise may still lash out). Huge difference.

Having said that, the comparison I AM making is that children are people with valid emotions, who deserve to have space held for them like any adult.

Nowhere have I suggested anyone should "put up" with hitting from a child - the poster I quoted suggested ignoring and grey rocking a tantrum / emotional explosion. And listening to them is often the quickest and best way to reduce them.

Hugs, OP. It's totally understandable that your lovely child's behaviour might be triggering things in you.

Have you had PTSD / similar therapy?

@Tigofigo

Hugs, OP. It's totally understandable that your lovely child's behaviour might be triggering things in you.

Have you had PTSD / similar therapy?

No sadly not

Been ignoring it

Ok so say it happens few weeks from now

And she is hitting me again
Do i take her out right away?
Hold her hand
????

Sorry just still struggling to think ahead for this one

Thank you @Tigofigo I completely agree, and your longer post is lovely. You have a wonderful way of putting it - holding space for them. A very respectful way of recognising the validity of feelings whether they belong to a child or adult.

Hugely helpful all of you

To be able to name my fears and acknowledge the fear of all this

If my 4yo hits (very rare now), it's "NO, DS, I will not let you hit me." and I move out of reach. If he tried again, I'll restrain his hand and repeat myself, still calm firm voice. Tantrum will ensue, I'll stay nearby but out of reach and say calmly, at intervals, things like, "I see you're angry. I'm here for you when you're ready. When you want a cuddle I'm here." I don't talk about the behaviour at all until much later when he is calm and cuddled and feeling safe again, and then only to remind him that it hurts when he hits and I won't let him hurt people.

@missymousey

If my 4yo hits (very rare now), it's "NO, DS, I will not let you hit me." and I move out of reach. If he tried again, I'll restrain his hand and repeat myself, still calm firm voice. Tantrum will ensue, I'll stay nearby but out of reach and say calmly, at intervals, things like, "I see you're angry. I'm here for you when you're ready. When you want a cuddle I'm here." I don't talk about the behaviour at all until much later when he is calm and cuddled and feeling safe again, and then only to remind him that it hurts when he hits and I won't let him hurt people.

I like this ALOT !!!

lovely ideas here thank you

And sorry for sounding like a total idiot

I am really struggling with implementing consequences that also affect my (perfectly behaved) 7 year old. So if my four year old kicks off in the park or soft play I would ideally remove her immediately. But I feel like it’s unfair on 7, who I think already struggles a bit with her sisters behaviour.

@WeOnlyTalkAboutBruno

I am really struggling with implementing consequences that also affect my (perfectly behaved) 7 year old. So if my four year old kicks off in the park or soft play I would ideally remove her immediately. But I feel like it’s unfair on 7, who I think already struggles a bit with her sisters behaviour.

Yesssss!!

So what to do?
Put them on a time out at side of the playground??!!!

I think someone already said this but choices really help. Also remember that she is 4 and will struggle to regulate her own emotional responses. So for example on the shop exa

she was upset because she couldn't have he thing she wanted. Give a choice and maybe validate her upset. 'I know you are upset because you can't have x but it isn't ok to kick Mummy because you are sad. You can say sorry for kicking Mummy and we can get you one of these or if you don't we will have to go home and you won't get anything'. In the coffee shop 'That pie is too expensive but you can share one of these with Mummy or have one if these' If she has a tantrum get down to her level and say something like 'Mummy would really like to have a drink and a snack here with you like a big girl but if you keep screaming we will have to leave' and then be prepared to leave. It's hard work but they get it.

A small child having a tantrum isn't a reflection on your parenting so just keep calm, give her the options and then follow through. If you feel it's linked to the arrival of the new baby use lots of language like ' I love you so much but I don't like this behaviour' or ' I know you are a good girl so show me how well you can....' to try and reinforce positives.

@WonderingWanda

I think someone already said this but choices really help. Also remember that she is 4 and will struggle to regulate her own emotional responses. So for example on the shop exa

she was upset because she couldn't have he thing she wanted. Give a choice and maybe validate her upset. 'I know you are upset because you can't have x but it isn't ok to kick Mummy because you are sad. You can say sorry for kicking Mummy and we can get you one of these or if you don't we will have to go home and you won't get anything'. In the coffee shop 'That pie is too expensive but you can share one of these with Mummy or have one if these' If she has a tantrum get down to her level and say something like 'Mummy would really like to have a drink and a snack here with you like a big girl but if you keep screaming we will have to leave' and then be prepared to leave. It's hard work but they get it.

A small child having a tantrum isn't a reflection on your parenting so just keep calm, give her the options and then follow through. If you feel it's linked to the arrival of the new baby use lots of language like ' I love you so much but I don't like this behaviour' or ' I know you are a good girl so show me how well you can....' to try and reinforce positives.

Love this also

Thank you for taking the time to respond

Very helpful

I can do this

I need to also worry less about people staring

We had loosley been working on a star chart with treats for 7 days good behaviour

Today she was on day two

But me being an idiot I didn't clearly explain 7 stars ans then a treat
As in 7 days of good behaviour
I did break down the expectations ie no hitting , helping me when I ask for something , no name calling

So I screwed that one up

@Queenie6655

Guys these are amazing

So todays example
In a coffee shop she sees an expensive pie i buy it
She doesn't want it then
She spots a horse in the gift shop 30 pounds I say no it's not for sale go pick a small toy
She begs and begs
Shop owner steps in and says sorry this toy is reserved for someone else
So she starts hitting me
EVERY FCKER IN THE GIFT SHOP WATCHING US
5 mins later I get her out

She begs to go back in
We do
I buy her a fcking useless teddy 13 pounds
We went In for a coffee

So almost 17 quid down and huge out of control tantrum

I wanted to get her back to car asap and she totally refused so had to take her back in as was causing scene and I had baby with me

So you reward her every time she behaves badly? Why wouldn’t she tantrum then?

Figure out why you need to give her what she wants and give in to her. What do you think will happen if you don’t? What are you worried about? Figure that out, figure out if it makes sense as a reason and go from there.