Rishi and his wife

[eerk]

AIBU to ask

1. What is wrong with him having a green card if this is not breaking any rules?

2. What is wrong with his wife only paying UK tax on UK income if this is within the rules?

I assume what they are doing is no different to what anyone else is likely to do in their situation.

Isn't it the rules the need to change rather than their actions?

I’m in two minds about the choices Aksharta Murphy has made but also a bit surprised at how confusing the reporting has been of the actual facts. Basically:

1. Non-dom status is not a matter of choice but of fact. The law says AM is non-dom unless she plans to make the UK her home till the day she dies. I doubt she plans to do that. Domicile also affects more than tax - it covers inheritance rights and bits of family law for example. It is exceedingly difficult legally to lose your domicile. The the UK sometimes benefits from this - for example where UK people live abroad for decades but their worldwide estates are still subject to UK inheritance tax.
2. Tax residence is also a matter of fact. There is a statutory test for it. AM is clearly UK resident and she’s never said she isn’t. As she is UK resident, she is covered by UK tax rules.
3. As a UK resident non domiciled person, she has the right to claim the remittance basis of taxation, which means that she pays tax on UK income and on foreign income she remits to the UK but not on foreign income she does not remit. That is where the element of choice comes in. AM chose to claim the remittance basis but she didn’t have to.
4. Once she has been resident in the UK for 7 years she has to pay £30k, riding to £60k later, on top of tax to claim the remittance basis of taxation.
5. Once she has been UK resident for 15 out of the last 20 years, she is treated as UK domiciled for UK tax purposes and cannot claim the remittance basis - she’s taxed on her worldwide income, subject to any tax treaties, while she is UK tax resident.

This isn’t a loophole, which is a mistake in tax legislation that leaves a gap. As far as I know, it’s designed to encourage rich or entrepreneurial people to come to the UK. The Labour government looked at it and left it in place in around 2008 and the 15 year rule was introduced in 2017.

@janj2301

I love the fact that MN maintain that women are free to do their own thing they don't have to follow husband and here you are saying because of her husband's position she should change her financial arrangements. Hundreds of celebs don't pay UK tax but they aren't hounded in the media. She has not broken any laws. Most of the bitching (not just on MN) seems to be jealousy. If I had millions I'd do what I could to avoid NOT EVADE any taxes

She has been free to do what she wants. It's just that what she wants is morally questionable. She's made the decision to avoid paying tax in the country she lives in, has houses in, sends her kids to school in by claiming she's living here temporarily and wants to go back to India- where she's also not paying the tax. In fact, she's enjoying a tax haven. Oh, and coincidentally her husband sets the fiscal policy for the uk where she lives and avoids tax. And she benefitted from the uk furlough scheme where she isn't domiciled and is avoiding paying back.

@janj2301

I love the fact that MN maintain that women are free to do their own thing they don't have to follow husband and here you are saying because of her husband's position she should change her financial arrangements. Hundreds of celebs don't pay UK tax but they aren't hounded in the media. She has not broken any laws. Most of the bitching (not just on MN) seems to be jealousy. If I had millions I'd do what I could to avoid NOT EVADE any taxes

The point has clearly flown over your head.

She is free to do whatever she wants.

Others are free to decide that they would prefer that the Chancellor doesn’t personally benefit from a tax law that only benefits the very rich (tax haven rich), because they think it is compromising, and vote accordingly.

Plenty of other jobs are available, and people who are pro non Dom mega rich tax protection may think this is an asset for Sunak and can also vote accordingly.

It's perfectly reasonable to judge Sunak on the basis of his immediate family's financial arrangements. He chose to unite himself legally with Murty and that has consequences in every conflict of interest policy ever written. If you want to be treated as separate individuals financially then don't get married.

And while it's not illegal for a minister to hold a green card, or be married to a non dom, I think it's probably fatal to prime ministerial ambitions to legally declare that you're not committed to this country for the long term, but have in fact declared that your family intend to make their permanent home in two different countries.

If Murty had explained that she paying her taxes in India on her Indian wealth then you could perhaps defend the non-dom status. But she's not, is she? She's clearly part of the global web of tax avoidance which the G20 finance ministers have been attempting to address for decades. It is literally Sunak's job to cooperate with his peers to stop people doing the thing that his wife is doing with the money that funds his lifestyle.

This isn’t a loophole, which is a mistake in tax legislation that leaves a gap. As far as I know, it’s designed to encourage rich or entrepreneurial people to come to the UK. The Labour government looked at it and left it in place in around 2008 and the 15 year rule was introduced in 2017.

Yes… but all these ‘trickle down, rich people benefit the economy’ policies are heavily influenced by donors and the press (e.g. Rothermere) - for both parties.

It’s questionable how much good those people really do, and how many would leave if non Dom tax advantages weren’t available. I agree though that it’s deliberate, not a loophole.

What is very clear from Rishi's green card and from his wife's non-dom status is that they do not see their long term future in the UK. Personally, I am not happy about having someone in a key office of state who has explicitly stated their lack of commitment to this country in the longer term. How can we possibly expect them to have the UK's best interests at heart of they see themselves as merely passing through?

I work in tax and I don't like the narrative that she's somehow avoiding tax - she's not, this is just the basis of taxation for someone not born in the UK.

Not completely true - most non Doms can’t make the choice to pay the £30k/£70k when when that becomes applicable, or keep large sums of money outside the country, or use their resources to easily change their tax residence to manipulate the time thresholds.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t domicile based on father’s status rule still apply? Isn’t that how the owner of the Mail is a non Dom? His father left the U.K. to avoid tax reasons and his non Dom status passed to his son? Same for Zac Goldsmith?

This isn’t a loophole, which is a mistake in tax legislation that leaves a gap. As far as I know, it’s designed to encourage rich or entrepreneurial people to come to the UK.

Is that why we have so many more Russian oligarchs than other countries?

‘ So why does he want in? To have the fame that come with it? The power to keep the rules benefiting him his family and friends?’

He wants in because of status. I can imagine his FIL would love to say his DD is married to the PM. He has no empathy, is a poor chancellor - he wiped off billions of stolen furlough money. Help out to Eat out was a waste of money also. All he cares about is the PR and optics, it’s just status and how it looks not about actually doing a good job. He took the PR too far with the cheap car photo.

Why anyone would think he’d care about normal people is a mystery given his voting record. He’s an Ayn Rand disciple. All he cares about is becoming as rich as possible. Poor people can beg and die.

I also believe this is coming from within his own party too. They always had this dirt and more on him. Notice how many of his big name colleagues aren’t rushing to defend him?

Can you swap between non dom status and not ( and back again)?
So you could be non dom paying extra tax etc whilst your husband was a politician and then in 7 years time when he is not swap back to being non dom again? Or is that not possible?

@eerk

AIBU to ask

1. What is wrong with him having a green card if this is not breaking any rules?

2. What is wrong with his wife only paying UK tax on UK income if this is within the rules?

I assume what they are doing is no different to what anyone else is likely to do in their situation.

Isn't it the rules the need to change rather than their actions?

Do you think it is important that the Chancellor who sets tax policy and his family pay a similar proportion of their considerable wealth in taxes as someone on an average UK income?

Zac goldsmith had non dom status but gave it up when running for Richmond as mp iirc. I think it was because he was born overseas. I can clearly remember discussing it with colleagues also born overseas as to whether it was worth it for them ( conclusion it was not as they were mostly band 5 nurses )
Someone in the discussion said that very very rich people generally do fly to original home countries / overseas holiday homes etc deliberately to have their children in part so that the children could then claim non dom status as an adult. Not sure if that is true but it is a plausible

@AlexaShutUp

What is very clear from Rishi's green card and from his wife's non-dom status is that they do not see their long term future in the UK. Personally, I am not happy about having someone in a key office of state who has explicitly stated their lack of commitment to this country in the longer term. How can we possibly expect them to have the UK's best interests at heart of they see themselves as merely passing through?

I agree with this - however even holding this view makes us racist misogynists according to some on here.

@sashagabadon

Can you swap between non dom status and not ( and back again)? So you could be non dom paying extra tax etc whilst your husband was a politician and then in 7 years time when he is not swap back to being non dom again? Or is that not possible?

I think non-dom has become shorthand for the kind of tax arrangement Rishi's wife has, when pedantically it's actually the basis of taxation that is optional. She has apparently agreed to the more expensive option today - although because of how her affairs are arranged it's far from clear whether she'll actually pay much more UK tax. As for swapping back - she won't need to, as soon as Rishi is done with politics it looks as if they will clear off somewhere else as they really don't show any signs of being interested in being here beyond that, as is their perfect right of course.

Sunak's are obviously still stressing about it. Wife has created a Twitter account this morning to re-post the statement.

@Merrymouse

This isn’t a loophole, which is a mistake in tax legislation that leaves a gap. As far as I know, it’s designed to encourage rich or entrepreneurial people to come to the UK. The Labour government looked at it and left it in place in around 2008 and the 15 year rule was introduced in 2017.

Yes… but all these ‘trickle down, rich people benefit the economy’ policies are heavily influenced by donors and the press (e.g. Rothermere) - for both parties.

It’s questionable how much good those people really do, and how many would leave if non Dom tax advantages weren’t available. I agree though that it’s deliberate, not a loophole.

It was a policy in the Labour 2019 election to abolish it.

I agree with this - however even holding this view makes us racist misogynists according to some on here.

It really has nothing to do with racism or misogyny. This genuinely isn't about what people look like, where they were born or what nationality they hold etc. It is about their stated intent not to make the UK their long term home.

I understand the complexities of international families. DH was born overseas. We have both lived and worked internationally. DH had to give up his original nationality in order to take British nationality because his country of origin didn't allow dual citizenship, and that was really difficult for him. However, we both have a form of permanent residence in DH's home country and DH has permanent residence rights in a third country as well. I get that life is complicated when you're internationally mobile, and I totally get the appeal of wanting to keep various options open.

However, if you are going to take on a major office of state in the UK, with all of the power and responsibility that that brings, then I think you have to pick a side and you need to make an explicit long term commitment to this country. Otherwise, how can you possibly be trusted to act in UK's long term interests?

So Sunak was a Permanent Resident of the USA (whilst being UK MP and Chancellor) and so was, presumably paying US Tax on all of his income, including his UK income and paying full UK tax on his UK income at the same time? Given his family’s penchant for saving themselves and bit of dosh here and there - 20 mil when they’re literally billionaires - that sounds interesting and totally likely. I do hope that both the IRS and HMRC are thoroughly checking they’ve both received all of his tax filings for the period and that they’re watertight. I look forward to the totally transparent reporting of the UK Chancellor’s tax affairs in due course.
Sinai does like to be transparent about his financial affairs after all…..
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/27/huge-wealth-of-sunaks-family-not-declared-in-ministerial-register

Sinai? Oh dear autocorrect doesn’t seem to want me to criticise Sunak!

The Rishi’s have di e nothing wrong legally

Morally? Well it’s a difficult one. As Chancellor he is making choices that impact on all of us, with our standard of living reducing, however she is not paying taxes here, dispute living here full time, but is paying taxes where the businesses actually are, should she lay here?

There are occasions like this when I like the American system, in that you lay taxes in America wherever you work, so if you work abroad you lay two sets of taxes

Pay not lay

No one seems to be arranged by the number of workers being paid cash in hand and committing tax evasion (the illegal one) NOT all of them are low income, particularly a few builders I know who can well afford it.

Enraged. Not arranged!

@Saltyandvinegar

No one seems to be arranged by the number of workers being paid cash in hand and committing tax evasion (the illegal one) NOT all of them are low income, particularly a few builders I know who can well afford it.

Bollocks. Plenty of people on here are "arranged" (outraged?) about that too - including people who refuse to pay cash for anything who pop up on any thread about the subject. Not declaring and pay tax on cash receipts to a business is illegal though so not the same thing as exploiting a law. They are unrelated.

The issue with the green card is that you are stating that you intend to become a permanent citizen of the USA in future. He clearly didn't have that intention!

How do you know what Sunak's intentions were when he first obtained his green card? We are told he relinquished his green card in October 2021.

There are 2 strong Twitter threads that will answer your questions and let you see actually how bad this is.

Although bear in mind that the author of those tweets was an informal adviser to Jeremy Corbyn in his 2015 leadership campaign. Richard Murphy also had to issue a public apology to Lord Ashcroft in 2009;

pressgazette.co.uk/tory-chief-lord-ashcroft-settles-website-libel-claim/

And Murphy hasn't checked his facts here;
£37 billion on track and trace was very obviously wasted

It's Test and Trace, not track and trace and the final spend for 2021-2022 hasn't been announced yet (£13.5 billion spent 2020-2021 which was £8.7 billion less than expected.) As for free lateral flow tests being a waste of money (for example) - I thought Labour criticised the government for scrapping the free tests?