Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

My word should have been enough

341 replies

EthelsAuntie · 07/04/2022 09:37

A couple of weeks ago, I was admitted to hospital. I had severe abdominal pain, no appetite, being violently sick, couldnt even keep water down. I hadn't been to the toilet for a wee or a poo for at least 24hrs.
The dr wanted to send me for an x-ray of my tummy but wouldn't send me until I got a confirmed negative on a pregnancy test.
I repeatedly told them that I wasn't pregnant. I knew that I wasn't pregnant. However because I'm married they said they needed to do the test. This seriously held up proceedings. They had to put me on a drip. They probably would have done that anyway. But they had to wait for hours until I was able to go for a wee. Then they did a test on it and only then did they request the X-ray because lo behold I was not pregnant.
It turned out to be extremely serious and I needed emergency surgery that took 5 hours.
AIBU to have felt very strongly that they should have taken my word for it. Make me sign something to say that I wasn't pregnant. Fine. Don't just dismiss me because I'm of childbearing age.
I also wonder what would have happened had I been pregnant. Neither I nor a fetus would have survived what the actual problem was had it been left untreated.
It was an awful time and I have to say the constant asking and not taking my word for it did not help. I was feeling like shit. I am a strong, intelligent woman in my 40s but I felt I didn't have a voice to be listened to.

OP posts:
FOJN · 07/04/2022 14:24

if you had been pregnant and the procedure caused a miscarriage you would be devastated had you known or not.

And delaying treatment could have resulted in OP's deterioration or death, both have which would have made the results of any pregnancy test redundant. The priority should be the person who needs urgent treatment. treatment

ChateauMargaux · 07/04/2022 14:29

@EthelsAuntie I am sorry you were treated in this way. I agree that your word should have been enough. There is ample evidence that women are not treated in an adult to adult way in the health care system. If they needed to check, they could have wheeled in an ultrasound machine. Health care needs to assess the risks associated with the person in front of them.. ie adult female who tells them in no uncertain terms that she cannot be pregnant, a fact they could have verified, does not need to follow the protocol for all adult females presenting with abdominal pain.

Clarabellawilliamson · 07/04/2022 14:31

There have been 72 cases of pregnancy post hysterectomy according to the literature, mainly ectopic, occasionally attaching to other peritoneal surfaces. So whilst vanishingly rare, not impossible.

It sounds like you have been through an incredibly traumatic time, it must have been very frightening. I hope your recovery goes well, both short and long term. Something similar happened to my brother a few years ago. He is now a few years post stoma reversal and is living a happy, healthy, pain and drug free life. Best of luck to you.

EthelTheAardvark · 07/04/2022 14:31

@EthelsAuntie

Sorry, those who think that I am too thick to understand why they did it. I do understand the risks but it would have been my choice to go ahead. I am needed by my alive children. Fine make me sign a waiver to say that this was my decision but it should have been my decision. I seriously could have died because of this wait.
I think the point is that the surgery could potentially have been more dangerous for you if you had been pregnant - there's a substantial risk of increased blood loss, for instance. So failing to do the test would have put at risk your chances of surviving and being there for your already existing children.
Choopi · 07/04/2022 14:32

For everyone saying they had to check it could have been ectopic why couldn't they do the x-ray whilst they waited for her to be able to pee? If it is an ectopic pregnancy then she wouldn't have been able to carry the pregnancy to term anyway. I just don't understand why when a woman says she has no uterus you can possibly justify delaying x-ray for 5 hours? Perhaps someone with medical knowledge can explain what happens if you have an x-ray when you have an ectopic pregnancy that means that it is an absolute no go procedure?

RosesAndHellebores · 07/04/2022 14:35

As always with NhS staff it's a race to the bottom when dealing with women. I recall an F1 (who looked 12 but thought she knew it all) saying to me "I'll assume you are retired as you are over 60". Outrageous.

Roselilly36 · 07/04/2022 14:37

Yes of course they should have taken your word for it, I had a similar experience before surgery, when I started vomiting after the pre med drugs, I was asked by the anaesthetist and surgeon whether I could be pregnant, I assured them I wasn’t and that I had been careful to avoid getting pregnant as I needed to get the op, out of the way first. They did the surgery, I was wasn’t pregnant. But yes, I agree if you are married they seem to think you must be!

LikeAStar1994 · 07/04/2022 14:45

I have a feeling that I would be tested as well even though I'm a 27 year old virgin and Asexual. If I told them that, I wouldn't expect them to believe me because they have no idea who I am and what my personal circumstances are.

They can't just take your word for it. Not how it works.

Sounds so horrible and rough what you have been through. I pray you are feeling better soon Flowers

fossilsmorefossils · 07/04/2022 14:46

@TheYearOfSmallThings

They have to check.

I can't tell you how many women insist they cannot possibly be pregnant, and then test positive. For some it is a genuine surprise, for others they may have known or suspected but for whatever reason they didn't want to acknowledge it. Also when a woman is unable to produce even a drop of urine to carry out a test, that in itself raises questions.

It should be possible to refuse to do a medical test that is not related to the procedure. The consent forms can also add a clause that you have to be 100% certain that you are not pregnant, and if you do end up being pregnant then you cannot complain for being an idiot.
tamarinda · 07/04/2022 14:46

@Choopi

For everyone saying they had to check it could have been ectopic why couldn't they do the x-ray whilst they waited for her to be able to pee? If it is an ectopic pregnancy then she wouldn't have been able to carry the pregnancy to term anyway. I just don't understand why when a woman says she has no uterus you can possibly justify delaying x-ray for 5 hours? Perhaps someone with medical knowledge can explain what happens if you have an x-ray when you have an ectopic pregnancy that means that it is an absolute no go procedure?
the surgery took 5 hours, not a 5 hour delay
NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/04/2022 14:46

Thinking back to when I last worked in Obs/Gynae, if somebody has had a hysterectomy (with or without bilateral salpingooophrectomy), there's a good chance that it was performed transvaginally - which means there's no outward physical signs.

To get the physical main notes, as the A&E system runs independently, requires a lengthy process of request and bringing over/tracking even on a weekday in normal office hours. And then it's often the case that the surgical records are less than obvious or were orphaned at the time, so never made it onto the main file or are sitting on a set of duplicate/dummy notes where the original ones weren't found at the time or because the patient's details didn't quite match up so a separate set were made. If they're lucky, it was coded appropriately. And they aren't actually in a remote secure storage location ten miles away, rather than half a mile across site. If they'd only ever been at the one hospital and hadn't actually been somewhere else at the time.

If the GP is open, perhaps they'd be willing to say over the phone that they've got a discharge letter relating to a hysterectomy on their records. But there's massive issues with that in terms of GDPR.

So the time that would take is often significantly longer than giving fluids to be able to do a quick test.

Turning to pregnancy itself, women can be mistaken, not know, have been raped, stealthed/raped, blanked a traumatic experience out of their memory, drugged and raped, not want to accept it as possible, be terrified of somebody finding out they're sexually active, not be able to accept it's possible due to gender dysphoria, sterilisations can fail, need to keep a pregnancy secret, mistake it as menopause, still be bleeding regularly each month, be on long term contraception that has run out and they haven't realised - so many things that could result in somebody insisting they couldn't possibly be pregnant when they actually are.

As an aside, before terminations were as easily available, it was a known thing that gynaes would bring women in for D&Cs due to 'heavy/irregular periods' or sterilisations/hysterectomies and then 'notice' as they were performing it that they'd 'inadvertently' terminated a pregnancy that would have purely coincidentally been unwanted. Sadly there would have been others where an unknown pregnancy would have been wanted but the gynae carried on. Obviously, this is unacceptable legally and now there are procedures in place to prevent it.

In addition, medical staff have the right to abstain from taking acts that would terminate a pregnancy. They have the right to have the information to enable them to decide whether they perform a procedure, whether it is truly a case of the woman's life being at risk or whether they need to get somebody else to perform it.

There are also medical reasons where a pregnancy makes a huge difference to the likelihood of somebody surviving surgery. They need to know in advance whether there is a thumb sized womb located in the pelvic region or whether they're going to find a large organ with a strong blood supply in the way. Or an ectopic pregnancy. Because a surgeon specialising in bowel issues is not the best person to be dealing with a ruptured fallopian tube or a molar pregnancy.

It's not about assuming that one particular woman in pain, disorientated and clearly unwell is too stupid to be believed, but that people on the whole make mistakes/don't know everything, it's a very important piece of medical information that affects the diagnosis and care of any woman, it can have huge emotional, physical and legal consequences for both patient and medical staff if they get it wrong and it's still quicker and more reliable to do the test than it is to cross their fingers and hope this one is right.

If the OP truly had no urine whatsoever in her bladder (which is quite unusual, as normally the kidneys keep functioning and small amounts come in continually), the act of rehydrating also improved her health to cope with surgery, established that the kidneys were still working and enabled them to proceed with full knowledge that they weren't about to go into a medical situation complicated or caused by pregnancy. Had it been operate now this very instant or die now, they would have done so, but whilst she was very, very ill, she wasn't at that stage. So they had time to do this.

godmum56 · 07/04/2022 14:52

@NeverDropYourMooncup

Thinking back to when I last worked in Obs/Gynae, if somebody has had a hysterectomy (with or without bilateral salpingooophrectomy), there's a good chance that it was performed transvaginally - which means there's no outward physical signs.

To get the physical main notes, as the A&E system runs independently, requires a lengthy process of request and bringing over/tracking even on a weekday in normal office hours. And then it's often the case that the surgical records are less than obvious or were orphaned at the time, so never made it onto the main file or are sitting on a set of duplicate/dummy notes where the original ones weren't found at the time or because the patient's details didn't quite match up so a separate set were made. If they're lucky, it was coded appropriately. And they aren't actually in a remote secure storage location ten miles away, rather than half a mile across site. If they'd only ever been at the one hospital and hadn't actually been somewhere else at the time.

If the GP is open, perhaps they'd be willing to say over the phone that they've got a discharge letter relating to a hysterectomy on their records. But there's massive issues with that in terms of GDPR.

So the time that would take is often significantly longer than giving fluids to be able to do a quick test.

Turning to pregnancy itself, women can be mistaken, not know, have been raped, stealthed/raped, blanked a traumatic experience out of their memory, drugged and raped, not want to accept it as possible, be terrified of somebody finding out they're sexually active, not be able to accept it's possible due to gender dysphoria, sterilisations can fail, need to keep a pregnancy secret, mistake it as menopause, still be bleeding regularly each month, be on long term contraception that has run out and they haven't realised - so many things that could result in somebody insisting they couldn't possibly be pregnant when they actually are.

As an aside, before terminations were as easily available, it was a known thing that gynaes would bring women in for D&Cs due to 'heavy/irregular periods' or sterilisations/hysterectomies and then 'notice' as they were performing it that they'd 'inadvertently' terminated a pregnancy that would have purely coincidentally been unwanted. Sadly there would have been others where an unknown pregnancy would have been wanted but the gynae carried on. Obviously, this is unacceptable legally and now there are procedures in place to prevent it.

In addition, medical staff have the right to abstain from taking acts that would terminate a pregnancy. They have the right to have the information to enable them to decide whether they perform a procedure, whether it is truly a case of the woman's life being at risk or whether they need to get somebody else to perform it.

There are also medical reasons where a pregnancy makes a huge difference to the likelihood of somebody surviving surgery. They need to know in advance whether there is a thumb sized womb located in the pelvic region or whether they're going to find a large organ with a strong blood supply in the way. Or an ectopic pregnancy. Because a surgeon specialising in bowel issues is not the best person to be dealing with a ruptured fallopian tube or a molar pregnancy.

It's not about assuming that one particular woman in pain, disorientated and clearly unwell is too stupid to be believed, but that people on the whole make mistakes/don't know everything, it's a very important piece of medical information that affects the diagnosis and care of any woman, it can have huge emotional, physical and legal consequences for both patient and medical staff if they get it wrong and it's still quicker and more reliable to do the test than it is to cross their fingers and hope this one is right.

If the OP truly had no urine whatsoever in her bladder (which is quite unusual, as normally the kidneys keep functioning and small amounts come in continually), the act of rehydrating also improved her health to cope with surgery, established that the kidneys were still working and enabled them to proceed with full knowledge that they weren't about to go into a medical situation complicated or caused by pregnancy. Had it been operate now this very instant or die now, they would have done so, but whilst she was very, very ill, she wasn't at that stage. So they had time to do this.

thank you for the common sense
BoredZelda · 07/04/2022 14:53

They made my 12 year old do a pregnancy test before she had surgery. It’s just their policy.

It didn’t affect your outcome so no point in bothering about it. If it had been absolutely vital that you were x-rayed, they’d have done it.

Brefugee · 07/04/2022 15:00

thank you @NeverDropYourMooncup (cool name) that's really useful info. I have learned a fair bit from this thread.

However this part worries me
In addition, medical staff have the right to abstain from taking acts that would terminate a pregnancy. They have the right to have the information to enable them to decide whether they perform a procedure, whether it is truly a case of the woman's life being at risk or whether they need to get somebody else to perform it.

How can a woman be sure that she won't just be left to die because of someone else's beliefs? and can we be sure that transmen are also being as carefully checked for pregnancy if it can be so influential on outcomes?

BrimFullOfAsher · 07/04/2022 15:02

Not RTFT so not sure if anyone has pointed out that the NICE Guidelines for Pre OPERATIVE checks do not mandate a pregnancy test.

So it's unlikely one should be enforced before an xray.

BoredZelda · 07/04/2022 15:13

How can a woman be sure that she won't just be left to die because of someone else's beliefs?

Because that would be negligent and against their oath, and would lead to them losing their job.

Choopi · 07/04/2022 15:19

the surgery took 5 hours, not a 5 hour delay

Oh sorry just hours then. My point still stands. Why couldn't they do an x-ray then rather than 'hours' later if they feared an ectopic pregnancy given an ectopic wouldn't have been carried to term anyway?

WhoWants2Know · 07/04/2022 15:20

@SVRT19674

I am very amused by the people on here telling the OP she is unreasonable when she has had a HYSTERECTOMY!!!! Being pregnant is completely IMPOSSIBLE, they would not be taking her word for it they would be reading her notes. A surgical nurse above explains they do it because of the legal docs they have to sign at the op theatre which do not include the possibility I see of "·test not necessary as patient does not have the necessary equipment for a pregnancy to even be possible". I have never ever had a test before an op, they have asked me and that´s that
Hysterectomy removes the womb, but if ovaries and Fallopian tubes are present, then ectopic pregnancy is still a possibility that needs to be ruled out.
RosesAndHellebores · 07/04/2022 15:25

@NeverDropYourMooncup "it's still quicker to do the test than cross your fingers and hope this one is right".

That phrase sums up the reductive attitude towards humans in the NHS. "this one". If humans are to be afforded an iota of dignity do they not deserve to be referred to as "the patient" or the "woman".

The latent lack of respect leaves me speechless however informative your response may have been about the technicalities, to refer to a woman or patient in that way is reprehensible and sums up what is wrong at root and branch level.

Natty13 · 07/04/2022 15:32

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@NeverDropYourMooncup "it's still quicker to do the test than cross your fingers and hope this one is right".

That phrase sums up the reductive attitude towards humans in the NHS. "this one". If humans are to be afforded an iota of dignity do they not deserve to be referred to as "the patient" or the "woman".

The latent lack of respect leaves me speechless however informative your response may have been about the technicalities, to refer to a woman or patient in that way is reprehensible and sums up what is wrong at root and branch level.[/quote]
Go to America for your next treatment and see if they are any less careful with things like this because "this one" might die/sue/get you prosecuted. This is a practical aspect of healthcare around the world.

Brefugee · 07/04/2022 15:41

Because that would be negligent and against their oath, and would lead to them losing their job.

If the woman dies because they're all "oh no a clump of cells" before anyone else can help? doesn't help the woman that they were looking for someone to take over.

Anyone on the trans man issue?

Elphame · 07/04/2022 15:41

It is ridiculous.The nurse was very apologetic when she said she had to do a pregnancy test on me before some surgery.

I'm the wrong side of 60

It was apparently hospital policy to test all women under 70.

FOJN · 07/04/2022 15:49

In addition, medical staff have the right to abstain from taking acts that would terminate a pregnancy.

As far as I am aware this is only true if the intention of the procedure is to terminate a pregnancy. Staff do not have the right to refuse to participate in necessary procedures or treatment because it might adversely affect the outcome of a pregnancy.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/04/2022 15:50

@Brefugee

thank you *@NeverDropYourMooncup* (cool name) that's really useful info. I have learned a fair bit from this thread.

However this part worries me
In addition, medical staff have the right to abstain from taking acts that would terminate a pregnancy. They have the right to have the information to enable them to decide whether they perform a procedure, whether it is truly a case of the woman's life being at risk or whether they need to get somebody else to perform it.

How can a woman be sure that she won't just be left to die because of someone else's beliefs? and can we be sure that transmen are also being as carefully checked for pregnancy if it can be so influential on outcomes?

It's a tricky legal area as the right to abstain from a termination doesn't hold where it is a genuine life or death right now situation, but the fundamental is that the woman's life should be prioritised. Chemo isn't offered before about 12-14 weeks in cases of cancer, for example, and hormone or radiotherapy isn't at all, but a termination would be made available. There are sources of information for medical professionals designed to make the decisions simpler/find alternatives wherever possible/make it possible for the woman to give truly informed consent.

If a pregnant woman in later stages needs livesaving surgery, the only patient on the table is a woman until the moment a child is delivered, who then becomes the priority of a separate team. One of my bosses participated in an emergency delivery in a very sad case where he was delivering a baby whilst another team were fighting to save the mother. Between them, they tried desperately to save both, but fundamentally, his job was to get the baby out to reduce the demands upon the mother's body, not to save the child.

Transmen, along with any other female from the age of 12 have to be tested. Even if it upsets them. It's why there needs to be an open and strict adherence to sex based treatment, not gender.

In short, the obligation to save her life comes first. And it's unlikely that an entire department would all refuse to assist in those circumstances (yes, I know it happened in Eire. This is not Eire).

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/04/2022 15:52

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@NeverDropYourMooncup "it's still quicker to do the test than cross your fingers and hope this one is right".

That phrase sums up the reductive attitude towards humans in the NHS. "this one". If humans are to be afforded an iota of dignity do they not deserve to be referred to as "the patient" or the "woman".

The latent lack of respect leaves me speechless however informative your response may have been about the technicalities, to refer to a woman or patient in that way is reprehensible and sums up what is wrong at root and branch level.[/quote]
You're looking to take offence where there isn't any. 'This one' meant 'this decision'. Not the person - the decision of the medical staff to proceed without testing.

Swipe left for the next trending thread