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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why people are so keen to defend their profession

119 replies

Siepie · 06/04/2022 12:04

It's something I see quite a lot on Mumsnet. I'm including my own job here: I'm a lecturer. I work hard and I think I do a good job. Several times on Mumsnet I've seen threads about problems DC are having at university, and lecturers posting along the lines of "that could never happen" / "a lecturer would never do that!" Meanwhile I'm thinking I've definitely worked with people I could imagine doing that!

It seems to be the same with a lot of public facing roles on here, e.g. teachers, doctors, receptionists, call handlers. I'd understand if a poster was complaining about all of your profession, but if someone's posting about a specific incident, why do posters automatically disbelieve them? Do you really think everyone with the same job as you is good at that job? If so you must have been very lucky with your colleagues!

OP posts:
Fairislefandango · 10/04/2022 07:52

People may not often mean 'every single teacher', but I think they do often mean 'teachers in general'. If they don't mean that, and they actually mean 'some teachers' or 'a few teachers' or 'a couple of teachers I've met' then they should say so.

I've met incompetent doctors. Quite a few actually. I wouldn't dream of saying 'Doctors are incompetent' though. If I did, imo a doctor would be very much justified in responding 'NADALT'.

This is why I find the OP's question quite odd. If someone makes a sweeping statement about a group you belong to, which in fact only applies to a minority of that group, why would it be odd for you to want to object?

Freezingbythesea · 10/04/2022 08:05

I once posted about my sixth form college and someone replied adamant that teachers couldn’t have done that Hmm

It’s very peculiar.

JoyLurking9to5 · 10/04/2022 08:17

@HELLITHURT I do not have a strong dislike of teachers.

It's so ridiculous now. Not responding again. You're not allowed to have your own experience of some teachers being back without being labelled bitter, vitriolic, having a strong dislike of teachers............

It couldn't possibly be just that I had some bad teachers.

Fairislefandango · 10/04/2022 08:20

I once posted about my sixth form college and someone replied adamant that teachers couldn’t have done that. It’s very peculiar.

It's not that peculiar that one poster responded that way though, is it? There is no shortage of individual posters on MN giving unreasonable responses on all boards and all topics.

HELLITHURT · 10/04/2022 08:26

[quote JoyLurking9to5]@HELLITHURT I do not have a strong dislike of teachers.

It's so ridiculous now. Not responding again. You're not allowed to have your own experience of some teachers being back without being labelled bitter, vitriolic, having a strong dislike of teachers............

It couldn't possibly be just that I had some bad teachers.[/quote]
You may have had bad teachers, but it comes across as a strong dislike and I'm offering an opinion as to why a family member treats you like they do.

nordica · 10/04/2022 08:40

I've worked with people in various roles and often threads about bad service or unfair treatment by X professional annoy me because the poster has misunderstood the situation in some way or sounds very entitled in wanting something that isn't possible for practical or other reasons. So I feel like defending the professional because I know they probably couldn't do it at work themselves.

Freezingbythesea · 10/04/2022 08:44

@Fairislefandango

I once posted about my sixth form college and someone replied adamant that teachers couldn’t have done that. It’s very peculiar.

It's not that peculiar that one poster responded that way though, is it? There is no shortage of individual posters on MN giving unreasonable responses on all boards and all topics.

I think telling me something didn’t happen is peculiar!
Yellownightmare · 10/04/2022 08:49

@Fairislefandango

People may not often mean 'every single teacher', but I think they do often mean 'teachers in general'. If they don't mean that, and they actually mean 'some teachers' or 'a few teachers' or 'a couple of teachers I've met' then they should say so.

I've met incompetent doctors. Quite a few actually. I wouldn't dream of saying 'Doctors are incompetent' though. If I did, imo a doctor would be very much justified in responding 'NADALT'.

This is why I find the OP's question quite odd. If someone makes a sweeping statement about a group you belong to, which in fact only applies to a minority of that group, why would it be odd for you to want to object?

It's also unreasonable to say, as some people in these threads do, that because they work really hard themselves, are competent and pleasant, that therefore we shouldn't have a thread about a particular person who failed to meet that standard and it's teacher-bashing or nurse-bashing.
FrippEnos · 10/04/2022 09:11

I think that it is fare to say that a lot of parents base their opinions on what happened when they were at school many years ago. And that many posters don't ever ;look into the context of what they are complaining about.

On this thread we have had a lockdown complaint about teachers (at a specific school), yet no representation of the situation that teachers found themselves in, at the last minute with little or no guidance other than the government saying we have cancelled the curriciulum.

DoItAfraid · 10/04/2022 09:30

@Maverickess

Secondly, I read a lot of posts about how the midwives were just sat at their desk doing paperwork and chatting. I’d rather not do this, but there is an entire office of people who audit everything I write and tell me off if I’ve missed something. For example, I once received a written warning for not performing a blood pressure check during a woman’s labour - it didn’t take into account that the baby arrived so quickly I delivered it in the footwell of their car.

I think there are some real misconceptions around paperwork in any kind of health setting - imo it absolutely should come second to care of the patients, however most people I know in healthcare also feel like that too, but hands are tied.
Even as a care assistant the amount of paperwork, and the time allowed for fitting it in just doesn't compute. I can only imagine with labour and birth ,health problems and complex medical needs, that is even more true for nurses and midwives.

We are told they are legal documents, they must be clear, concise, person centred, accurate and legible, we can be and are pulled up on notes that are lacking in detail, things that haven't been written down, things written in the wrong way by the CQC, social services, safeguarding etc - "If it's not written down it didn't happen". It's not acceptable to say that X ate all of his dinner, it has to be what he had, how much he ate, where he ate it, if it was fortified, if it had supplements added, and what (even though you've signed the MAR to say it'd been given), if they ate independently, if they needed help and how much. And that's just one person for one meal.
I understand that they are important to provide a whole picture of a person/illness etc, that others rely on them for the health and wellbeing of the person involved, that they are considered proof of what care has been provided, what has not, what has been refused, what has been accepted.

But, you're supposed to do all this while caring for people as well, and there's no crossover to allow for these legal documents to be written to the standard required, unless of course you put notes on a pad and carry it with you and then do it at the end of your shift - unpaid. But woe betide someone needs to see those notes and they're not up to the minute accurate before you've had chance to update them - because you're busy caring for other people - not acceptable. Also not acceptable to be doing notes while someone wants to go to the toilet, or needs clothes changing.
And yes, we chat whilst doing notes - about the person we're writing about usually, gathering information from others who have dealt with them too to make these legal documents accurate.

So in my 'unskilled' and not a professional occupation, there's those pressures - I can only imagine that the pressure and stakes are much higher for nurses and midwives.
And that, is the fault of those who fail to provide enough people to cover the needs of the patients (including the records that must be kept by law) not the people trying to do it.

Great post.
closetmeupandshootmetotheskies · 10/04/2022 10:43

@Storyifirstheard

I do see a lot of ‘oh that couldn’t possibly have happened’ with teachers and not only is it wrong but it’s dangerous.
I agree. I get that a fair bit. I was abused as a child and having spoken to teachers I had in PS as an adult, several of them admitted they knew something was amiss (the abuse at home made me weird, odd and withdrawn and to add to it all I was bullied at school). but they chose to stay silent as my Mum was considered a pillar of the community and it would have been hard for them.

I genuinely want to put the teeth of teachers claiming this kind of stuff never happens through back of their heads, that is called gaslighting and is them taking out their inadequacy and inability to accept wrongdoing happens on the victims. it goes wrong. and sometimes people suffer as a result. If people see admitting that as a personal attack then they need to grow up

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 10/04/2022 10:57

@Danceandyouwillfeelbetter
I had respect for the teachers at my dc's school till I saw how little they did over lockdown - they were given free rein to help their pupils in what ever way they say fit, and that was as little as possible. I wouldn't trust that lot to arrange a piss up in a brewery and In can fully see now why the Gov don't trust them to be professionals. The self-gratulatory bollocks about how they had worked hard to figure out how to use teams by the third lockdown!...back in the real world everyone else seemed to getting on with it! Sure this was just my dc's school but many others on here shared the same experience.

The people you need to blame are the government, particularly Sir Gavin Williamson. They provided very little guidance or help for schools and that was THEIR job. You can’t suddenly decide it’s ‘free reign’ at a moment of crisis when ‘micro manage’ is your usual approach to state school education. That’s part of the problem, though. Those on the ground (the nurses, council workers, social workers, teachers, dentists, doctors, midwives, police officers) are blamed for the consequences of the decisions and policies made by management and government. The midwife posting about staff shortages highlighted this. It is frustrating to be criticised for things we can’t control.

closetmeupandshootmetotheskies · 10/04/2022 12:14

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@Danceandyouwillfeelbetter
I had respect for the teachers at my dc's school till I saw how little they did over lockdown - they were given free rein to help their pupils in what ever way they say fit, and that was as little as possible. I wouldn't trust that lot to arrange a piss up in a brewery and In can fully see now why the Gov don't trust them to be professionals. The self-gratulatory bollocks about how they had worked hard to figure out how to use teams by the third lockdown!...back in the real world everyone else seemed to getting on with it! Sure this was just my dc's school but many others on here shared the same experience.

The people you need to blame are the government, particularly Sir Gavin Williamson. They provided very little guidance or help for schools and that was THEIR job. You can’t suddenly decide it’s ‘free reign’ at a moment of crisis when ‘micro manage’ is your usual approach to state school education. That’s part of the problem, though. Those on the ground (the nurses, council workers, social workers, teachers, dentists, doctors, midwives, police officers) are blamed for the consequences of the decisions and policies made by management and government. The midwife posting about staff shortages highlighted this. It is frustrating to be criticised for things we can’t control.[/quote]
Except that we can control it, or we should be able to. What drove me from the NHS was being bullied by my colleagues, on the same level as me, for trying to speak up about the nonsense and BS we had to deal with.

When you work in a field where enacting change is ALWAYS someone else's job, and where those speaking up get bullied and harassed? Guess what? Change isn't going to happen.

Constantly punting it off as "someone else's job" is pathetic, spineless and a categorical refusal to take responsibility. If everyone who was pissed off about something did something about it, or could do without colleagues being bastards to them, then there would be a lot less crap to be pissed off by.

Too long, didn't read: Change is all our responsibilities. And too many people kick the can down the road with a "well, not MY job, ta very much" and that mindset is shitting up everything.

FrippEnos · 10/04/2022 13:37

closetmeupandshootmetotheskies

You seem to be over looking that the change was at the last minute and that there was no money to enact the changes required.

Yeah great, lets not blame the government for the shitshow that occurred, lets give them a free pass and blame those that had to try and work with fuck all resources to prevent a mess that wasn't of their making.

closetmeupandshootmetotheskies · 10/04/2022 13:43

@FrippEnos

closetmeupandshootmetotheskies

You seem to be over looking that the change was at the last minute and that there was no money to enact the changes required.

Yeah great, lets not blame the government for the shitshow that occurred, lets give them a free pass and blame those that had to try and work with fuck all resources to prevent a mess that wasn't of their making.

Where did I say let the Government off? Fuck the Government and everyone in Parliament, they're all bastards.

But electorates get the Governments they deserve. Most people are not only pig ignorant about how Parliament, Law and voting works, but they're proud of it too. Parents don't teach their kids how Parliament works, and they rely on schools for it, and people are by and large stupid about it all. Like the amount of morons going "I never voted for the PM!!". Well, if course not, you only voted for him if you live in his constituency. I voted for my MP choice to represent my constituency at Parliament, that's how the system works.

Blame the Government. Absoloutely, But blame the electorate for being thick as shit, ignorant and fecking lazy too. There's plenty of blame to go about on this one and too many are responsible for it.

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 10/04/2022 13:43

I think you have to accept that you don’t have the ability to control things. You needed up leaving the NHS despite fighting against it so it had zero effect. Nothing to stop you ‘fighting’ for change but some organisations are not set up to allow it. For those who were complaining about their treatment by midwives, well, there are not enough midwives and that isn’t in the midwives’ power to fix. Funding for training and wages is needed and that is someone else’s decision. What can the midwives do to get the funding? Strike? Are NHS workers even allowed to strike? How much support would public sector workers actually get for this?

And ultimately, your attitude allows those who SHOULD make the decisions to get away with it in the worst kind of passing the buck. If someone is paid to make decisions and policies, they should do it. Campaign for that.

Danceandyouwillfeelbetter · 10/04/2022 15:18

So the teachers at our school were faced with a blank sheet? Curriculum cancelled! No idea what to do? No money. No subject knowledge. No innovation, no creativity - just a rabbit in the headlights reaction, nobody told you what to do, no one expected to be in a leadership position? I suppose that’s what happens when you don’t ask teachers to think for themselves…just hope that attitude didn’t rub off on the kids because the rest of the world outside of schools has to find a way to make it work!Hmm

FrippEnos · 10/04/2022 18:01

Danceandyouwillfeelbetter

Wow, what a fucked up response.

toconclude · 10/04/2022 21:00

@cornflakedreams
You don't understand synecdoche either, apparently.

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