To wonder why people are so keen to defend their profession

[Siepie]

It's something I see quite a lot on Mumsnet. I'm including my own job here: I'm a lecturer. I work hard and I think I do a good job. Several times on Mumsnet I've seen threads about problems DC are having at university, and lecturers posting along the lines of "that could never happen" / "a lecturer would never do that!" Meanwhile I'm thinking I've definitely worked with people I could imagine doing that!

It seems to be the same with a lot of public facing roles on here, e.g. teachers, doctors, receptionists, call handlers. I'd understand if a poster was complaining about all of your profession, but if someone's posting about a specific incident, why do posters automatically disbelieve them? Do you really think everyone with the same job as you is good at that job? If so you must have been very lucky with your colleagues!

@saraclara

I'm sure your colleagues are nice to their other colleagues but I bet they still go in to class and have their favourites who get all the attention and encouragement, the ones they have written off, the ones they dislike.

This,. @JoyLurking9to5 is exactly the sort of post that makes people defensive. You have no idea who that poster's colleagues are. You've never met them, you've had no dealings with them. But you bet they... (insert whatever your beef is with one particular teacher).

"I bet that..." is irritating, but not quite as irritating as "I can guarantee that..."

Do these people know what 'guarantee' means? It means that if you're wrong, it'll cost you something by way of compensation.

"I can guarantee that anyone who says went to public school."

"I said that, and I didn't. Please send me a fiver."

I'm a nurse. I have always said that a third of nurses are really good, a third are adequate and a third are poor. I would say the same about GPs. I just assumed that was the same for teachers, police officers, cleaners etc.

@EV117 that’s the thing there are so much that you are not aware of in school unless you have to which is what I highlighted in my second paragraph that one parent didn’t think much of a teacher due parents night feedback but I knew from experience that if there was a problem that teacher would totally be on side.

The other thing teachers need to understand is that most of us will at some point in our lives have had regular contact with one compared to nurses, drs, police officers etc, hence having an opinion.

Good teachers can be inspirational, bringing topics to life, making lessons a joy, who will remain beloved years after the pupils have moved on - one of mine died recently and the streets were lined with ex pupils who they inspired. That’s what we all want for our childrens education.

@AndAsIfByMagic

Have you seen how many teacher bashing threads there have been since the beginning of Covid?

Most grossly unfair and some just speculation.

I'm retired now but it sickens me to see it. Some people seem to have an irrational hatred for teachers.

It's a bit weird.

I had respect for the teachers at my dc's school till I saw how little they did over lockdown - they were given free rein to help their pupils in what ever way they say fit, and that was as little as possible. I wouldn't trust that lot to arrange a piss up in a brewery and In can fully see now why the Gov don't trust them to be professionals. The self-gratulatory bollocks about how they had worked hard to figure out how to use teams by the third lockdown!...back in the real world everyone else seemed to getting on with it! Sure this was just my dc's school but many others on here shared the same experience. Does me complaining about teachers who didn't do their job whilst they were paid over lockdown make you sick? I think you have got your morals back to front, just as well you are retired.

Good teachers can be inspirational, bringing topics to life, making lessons a joy, who will remain beloved years after the pupils have moved on - one of mine died recently and the streets were lined with ex pupils who they inspired. That’s what we all want for our childrens education.

Yes, but that's wildly unrealistic. In teaching, as in any job, most people are average, good or just about ok, some are outstanding and some are terrible. That is inevitable. Nobody can make all teachers great. And when the education system is as broken as it is, and teachers are leaving in their droves, fewer great teachers will be attracted to the profession or stay in it. And some who start out great are so ground down by the job that they don't stay great. There's only so much indifference to their huge efforts that most people can take.

@SD1978

Seems it's also ok to only 'bash' certain jobs. Teachers are sacrosanct and nurses free game........

really not sure how you have come that conclusion. Both get a fair amount of shit on here.

Siepie

The major issue is that posters/people confuse

'make sure that you have all the facts'

with

"teachers believe that teachers can do no wrong"

teachers believe that teachers can do no wrong

Not true at all. It may seem that way I think because this ‘bashing’ doesn’t just occur on MN. It’s a common occurrence in many schools that a child misinterprets something or in some cases, tells an out right lie, and parents blindly jump on this and become quite aggressive without taking a moment to question their child properly or get the real story - then don’t even feel sorry when a bunch of witnesses and a confession from their own child shows them how blind they have been. So I think when things are said on here it’s understandable for school staff to be a bit sceptical when school staff are being criticised. Teachers can certainly do wrong. A thread on here recently was about some very innapropriate homework being set - every single poster who identified themselves as a teacher made it clear they thought it was not ok, ironically a lot of parents thought it was a great idea when something is clearly wrong teachers absolutely do not automatically imply teachers can do no wrong. Quite the opposite. But when it’s a bit ambiguous, and perhaps a familiar real life situation, then it makes sense to be a bit defensive and cautious.

@Onionpatch

I think a lot of threads start with a reasonable complaint about a specific event. I agree any profession has some mediocre or poor practicioners. I also think even amazing professionals have bad days or make mistakes.

I do think a lot of threads then move onto very general swiping though- poor gp receptionists!

I think insiders know how hard people in their job work and in what difficult circumstances so feel they need to defend it. Individuals do their best in crappy situations and didnt make the crappy situation - but it sometimes comes across that the crappy situation is just how is has to be and noone ever makes a mistake.

Really sensible post. And it’s a well documented cause of staff burn-out when staff are working within a system which they feel ethically at odds with, but do their absolute best within it, and have little choice to move/change careers as they have bills to pay and are only qualified to do one thing (nhs a prime example)

teachers believe that teachers can do no wrong

Horseshit. Every teacher has worked with bad teachers. We all know there are bad teachers.

Teachers are sacrosanct

'Teachers are sacrosanct' would mean that people don't criticise teachers. But they do. All the bloody time. Otherwise teachers wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves, would they? The reason you think teachers are sacrosanct is because you often see teachers defending teachers. But that's because they get so much (ill-informed) shit all the time.

@Sherrystrull ''vitriol'' wow. That's INSANE. I'm not vitriolic towards teachers. I know that they are human and they are not trained to overcome their preferences for the students they prefer. They aren't trained to disguise their dislike of the students who trigger them. You think that people who've had bad teachers and understand the reasons behind that are vitriolic! This is why some posters are saying that teachers are sacrosanct. It seems so. You can't even acknowledge that some are not cut out for teaching.

[quote JoyLurking9to5]@Sherrystrull ''vitriol'' wow. That's INSANE. I'm not vitriolic towards teachers. I know that they are human and they are not trained to overcome their preferences for the students they prefer. They aren't trained to disguise their dislike of the students who trigger them. You think that people who've had bad teachers and understand the reasons behind that are vitriolic! This is why some posters are saying that teachers are sacrosanct. It seems so. You can't even acknowledge that some are not cut out for teaching.[/quote]
Don't tell me what I think.

Where have I said that I don't believe some people aren't cut out for teaching? I don't think everyone is cut out for teaching. I've met many.

Where have I said that people who recognise they've had bad teachers are vitriolic?

I was mentioning the type of bitter language you were using in your post.

Teachers are professional and all of the good ones I know have worked hard to treat all the students fairly.

Read your post back. You are lumping all teachers into one negative heap.

It's hard not to take comments personally when horrible things like what you wrote are directed at the whole profession. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about teachers treating children unfairly.

I quit working in the NHS. I loved my job (not a Nurse). But realised something. People prate on about "but is it med staffs fault there is understaffing???!".No, it's not.

But there is a huge and crippling problem of crab in a bucket syndrome and of bullying of anyone speaking out, as identified in stuff like the Ockenden report.

If you stick your neck out your life will be made hell.I trained years back for free. No student loan, NHS bursary. And I quit because of how crap it was working there cos other staff on my level were bloody foul to anyone proposing change or suggesting ways of working better.

balls to that all, frankly. Happier out.

Anyone who take criticism of their profession as a personal attack, btw, needs to grow the hell up and get over themselves.

@Sherrystrull you told me there was vitriol in my post. There wasn't.

There wasn't any ''bitter''' language in my post. My experiences are what they were and I'm not alone. It's not for you to invalidate a very common experience (the experience of having had teachers who were terrible and /or who shamed and humiliated) as ''bitter''' or ''vitriolic''. This was my experience and I am not bitter and I'm not vitriolic. But you tell me I am? And then tell me not to tell you what you think

You are not coming across as a good ambassador for teachers here.
Just do your personal best and don't take it upon yourself to defend the profession to the point where you are labelling other people vitriolic or bitter. That is horrible, invalidating other people's experiences. Just why would you do that. If you know that not all teachers are cut out for teaching then do not be so defensive that you cannot read somebody's truthful account of teachers without labelling them vitriolic or bitter. I am neither of those things.

@AndAsIfByMagic

Have you seen how many teacher bashing threads there have been since the beginning of Covid?

Most grossly unfair and some just speculation.

I'm retired now but it sickens me to see it. Some people seem to have an irrational hatred for teachers.

It's a bit weird.

I'm not a teacher.

But I totally agree with you, teachers, cyclists and estate agents get such a hard time on MN!

Honestly, I defend them constantly in advance much as they're not all useless, stop generalising etc.

@Stompythedinosaur

I'm a nurse, and can get very tired of the nurse bashing threads. I never see threads about a reasonable issue. I very often see threads where people have misunderstood what nursing is and posters want to buy in to the misogynistic notion that nurses should be "perfect, servant-like, self-sacrificing angels". I challenge it, because it is misogyny.

I've seen several threads where the OP is perfectly reasonable. I've also seen a few where they weren't. Just like for any other profession. I don't think most people expect nurses to be "perfect, servant-like, self-sacrificing angels". They in general expect them to be reasonably pleasant, do their jobs and not ignore them. Plenty of nurses can manage this, some can't. If you've had experience of the latter, you're perfectly entitled to complain about it.

@Fairislefandango

teachers believe that teachers can do no wrong

Horseshit. Every teacher has worked with bad teachers. We all know there are bad teachers.

Teachers are sacrosanct

'Teachers are sacrosanct' would mean that people don't criticise teachers. But they do. All the bloody time. Otherwise teachers wouldn't feel the need to defend themselves, would they? The reason you think teachers are sacrosanct is because you often see teachers defending teachers. But that's because they get so much (ill-informed) shit all the time.

If this is the case (and the same in most professions TBH) then it seems rather illogical to defend or try to justify defending the profession. It's a bit like NAMALT really. If you're not one of the shit ones then no problem.

My wife works in school in a support role and not a day goes by where she hasn't had a bad experience with a teacher. Teachers that can't manage basic budgeting or always talking down to support staff, like they're below them, making outrageous demands or making a complete mess of things and just expecting the support staff to sort it all out for them.

She says it's about half the teaching staff that are utterly useless. However, she recognises that the other half are brilliant so does

• doesn't tar them all with the same brush. Because teachers aren't a homogeneous lump.

I am definitely a profession defender sorry!

I am a Payroll Manager and hate the payroll bashing threads and posts I sometimes see. It's always "bloody payroll got it wrong" when actually there are lots of things that could have gone wrong.

1. Human error. Yea payroll do sometimes get it wrong. However in my experience I will remedy any payroll mistakes usually with a same day BACS payment. Did you notice the other 11 months of the year when I had worked all weekend auditing payroll to make sure your pay was spot on? Nope!

1. Manager error. I can't pay your overtime if your manager hasn't sent me the information. Contrary to popular knowledge the payroll crystal ball doesn't exist.

1. HMRC error. They fucked up your tax code, not me! And no I can't fix it for you or change the code on your say-so!

1. HR error. I can't pay your new starter if I don't know they exist. And I can't uplift your salary if I don't know you have been given an increase.

And breathe!!

Please anyone reading this if you are paid incorrectly don't go in all guns blazing and immediately blame payroll. We work hard and long hours but at the end of the day can only pay based on what we are told.

Lecture over. As you were

@JoyLurking9to5

So true *@Selkiesarereal* I had several really astonishingly nasty teachers. One who set out to shame me and humiliate me with an audience.

A relative of mine is a teacher and she is/has (?) given me and just me the silent treatment while fawning over all the rest of our relatives. It's so weird, but I think, this blatant emotional dysfunction is from a teacher. wow. Some teachers are good but they are only teachers and unfortunately you can't teach emotional health. They're not asked how they deal with their own dislike of pupils who may be triggering something in them. They're not taught how to avoid projecting on to students. They're not aware they're not aware. (The bad teachers I mean)

She probably does that due to your extreme blatant dislike of teachers!

Personally I don't get it though OP.

I'm an engineer and engineering is supposed to be a hugely sexist industry Most women are supposed to have a terrible time working with us men, who dominate every corner.

Whilst that's terrible and I'll call out bad behaviour. I'm not a sexist prick so the general criticism goes over my head. Same as when there are numerous threads on MN criticising men for xyz. For me they range from being interesting, funny to being something to learn from. I'm definitely not going to defend all men as a lot are just shit bags.

Another nurse here. Agree with PP that it's probably 1/3 to great/ok/terrible in the quality of my colleagues. Sometimes we can be a bit of all three depending on the day/staffing/demand.

What I do get frustrated with are apportioning blame to the wrong person "the nurses are shit because they didn't give a medication on time" could be because the prescription wasn't done correctly/pharmacy not completed it yet/F1's fucked off with the chart and I can't find it etc.
Mostly my hackles are raised when people come into contact with my area of work with an unrealistic expectation and then slag off the whole service for not meeting it. We have a (limited) amount of resource and interventions we can offer, and can only offer them when it's clinically indicated. Sometimes needs aren't met because that service isn't available and sometimes it just isn't the right thing to recommend so we won't. From the patient/relative's perspective, their (perceived) need hasn't been met and then the nurse/team/trust/NHS is globally "shit" in their opinion.

If this is the case (and the same in most professions TBH) then it seems rather illogical to defend or try to justify defending the profession. It's a bit like NAMALT really. If you're not one of the shit ones then no problem.

But from my experience, teachers on MN defending teachers are not saying 'Nope, shut up. All teachers are great. ' Nor do they usually defend individual teachers being criticised by a parent, where it's clear that the teacher is at fault.

What they are generally doing is refuting inaccurate sweeping statements which are made as though they apply to all teachers, or correcting downright wrong assumptions about various aspects teaching, or sometimes disagreeing with a poster's point of view about a specific incident with a specific teacher.

The thing about NAMALT is that it's patently true, even though it's not the appropriate answer in some circumstances.

If you're talking to a man, and he responds to the news of a rape, or to some statistics about male violence against women by trotting out 'NAMALT', that shows a complete lack of acknowledgement of the problem. However, if someone made a blanket statement saying 'Men are rapists and abusers', then 'NAMALT' would seem a pretty reasonable and understandable response.

Similarly, when people make statements (as they often do) that 'Teachers are like petty tyrants' or 'Teachers sat on their arses and did nothing during the pandemic' or 'Teachers humiliate students in front of the class' etc etc, then it's perfectly reasonable to point out that these things apply to a minority of teachers. People are defensive precisely because a sweeping statement does appear to apply to them as well, not just the actually 'shit ones'.

I do see a lot of ‘oh that couldn’t possibly have happened’ with teachers and not only is it wrong but it’s dangerous.

@Fairislefandango.

Isn't the point with NAMALT, that it's never a sweeping statement? Therefore it's become a tiresome thing for (some) women to have to explain that the complaint wasn't applicable to all men.

Therefore, in the same way that people criticise teachers, it's never aimed at every single one.

I agree about educating people who have made false or incorrect assumptions about the profession though.