To wonder why people are so keen to defend their profession

[Siepie]

It's something I see quite a lot on Mumsnet. I'm including my own job here: I'm a lecturer. I work hard and I think I do a good job. Several times on Mumsnet I've seen threads about problems DC are having at university, and lecturers posting along the lines of "that could never happen" / "a lecturer would never do that!" Meanwhile I'm thinking I've definitely worked with people I could imagine doing that!

It seems to be the same with a lot of public facing roles on here, e.g. teachers, doctors, receptionists, call handlers. I'd understand if a poster was complaining about all of your profession, but if someone's posting about a specific incident, why do posters automatically disbelieve them? Do you really think everyone with the same job as you is good at that job? If so you must have been very lucky with your colleagues!

I think a lot of threads start with a reasonable complaint about a specific event. I agree any profession has some mediocre or poor practicioners. I also think even amazing professionals have bad days or make mistakes.

I do think a lot of threads then move onto very general swiping though- poor gp receptionists!

I think insiders know how hard people in their job work and in what difficult circumstances so feel they need to defend it. Individuals do their best in crappy situations and didnt make the crappy situation - but it sometimes comes across that the crappy situation is just how is has to be and noone ever makes a mistake.

I always read any posts complaining about or defending a profession assuming the poster means IME, but just hasn't been specific because it is an informal forum.

There are some professionals on MN that need to do the same and get over themselves.

Most posters don't deserve the boring, repeatitive pile ons and derailing of their thread they get for a mistake in wording. Says much more about the professional than the op.

A lot of jobs, either company specific or industry wide and sometimes legally mandated, there is lots of regulation. So for me, these "never do that!" comments are usually about the expected regulatory framework, nothing to do with character of individuals. Sometimes there are other practical reasons to find the story difficult to believe.

Of course anyone can be a bastard or negligent... but chances that someone would
A) do things at work to risk physically damaging themselves
B) where that physical damage would risk them being forced to take time off work
C) spout opinions or do actions that would easily get them reported for misconduct through easily accessible reporting systems (whistle blowing)
D) be continued presence in one's workplace in a workplace where people in OP's role move departments frequently, just 'yesterday" in fact

It just stretches credibility. there are fantasists that come on fora like MN, they are about. So yeah, people get questioned, of course they do.

yes I'm thinking of claims on a specific recent thread

ps: and that wasn't my profession by any means being accused of so much misconduct

pps: I've worked with plenty scientists, lecturers, who virtually never answer emails, and that's when they are paid to liaise with my employer (!). Big companies are no better.

Problem with teachers is that parents often only learn about the competence of their child's teacher through the words of their 6 year old.

It's to do with identity. Some people identify themselves as their job more than others.

[quote giggly]@cornflakedreams how fucking dare you make such sweeping statements about me. Just how ducking dare you. I have saved more lives than you’ve had hot dinners. You can ram your anger about me right up your own arse[/quote]
You are right to be angry. The response to your post was completely over the top and frankly one of the most horrible accusations I've ever read on MN. You can disagree with someone's view of the state of the NHS without accusing them of being the reason countless people have died.

@user1497207191

The other issue is that most people have no control over choice of teacher, nurse, GP, etc - they're basically given who they get and have to like it or lump it.

With other professions, such as solicitors, accountants, IFAs, etc., and trades such as plumbers, electricians, builders, etc., you have free choice. If you get someone who you don't like, does a crap job, etc., then you simply move on and choose someone else.

I agree with this.

And also as someone who works in the public sector, people have a sense of expectation that the public sector is there to do what they want, rather than what is best for the public as a whole.

But yes, I also know plenty of people in my line of work who are incompetent and live up to every stereotype people have of the job.

I’ll preface this by saying I’m a midwife, as this will give context to what I’m saying.

I think there’s a lot of bits about the profession that people don’t realise unless they’re in it. There’s currently a national shortage of midwives; I’d go as far as to describe it as a crisis. I don’t remember the last shift I worked where we had a full complement of staff. This means the staff are probably doing their very best in difficult circumstances. I often see posts saying my midwife left me etc, but realistically yes, I am going to prioritise the bits of my job that keep people safe rather than the bits that keep people comfortable. It’s shit, but it’s true.

Secondly, I read a lot of posts about how the midwives were just sat at their desk doing paperwork and chatting. I’d rather not do this, but there is an entire office of people who audit everything I write and tell me off if I’ve missed something. For example, I once received a written warning for not performing a blood pressure check during a woman’s labour - it didn’t take into account that the baby arrived so quickly I delivered it in the footwell of their car.

Finally, perception of what’s happening whilst you’re in labour is definitely skewed and Im not judging as I have children myself. What feels like ages waiting for pain relief is actually 15 minutes, which is the time it takes to find a second midwife free to check a controlled drug out of the controlled drug cupboard, mix it with an antiemetic, sign a drug chart, possibly even get it prescribed if required.

So it’s not that I’m saying stuff never happens. But what I’m saying is there’s often very valid reasons for what happened, and perhaps their perception is different from the perception of the staff

The problem with teaching is that all of us at one time went to school and most likely had a shit teacher so know that they still exist.

Another problem is perception . A few years ago I was chatting with a friend who has a child in the same class as mine and they were quite disappointed in parents night as the teacher told them all was good no problems, etc and they felt that the teacher really wasn’t engaged with the class as there wasn’t really anything of substance said.

Yet I knew differently as my child was going through an asd diagnosis at the time and they were very actively involved in helping us with this. So sometimes it can be all about perception as for many parents they will not have had to deal with the school when there are very real problems going on.

That said I do know someone in a similar position at a different school and their teacher was shit.

So true @Selkiesarereal I had several really astonishingly nasty teachers. One who set out to shame me and humiliate me with an audience.

A relative of mine is a teacher and she is/has (?) given me and just me the silent treatment while fawning over all the rest of our relatives. It's so weird, but I think, this blatant emotional dysfunction is from a teacher. wow. Some teachers are good but they are only teachers and unfortunately you can't teach emotional health. They're not asked how they deal with their own dislike of pupils who may be triggering something in them. They're not taught how to avoid projecting on to students. They're not aware they're not aware. (The bad teachers I mean)

@IDontDrinkTea

I’ll preface this by saying I’m a midwife, as this will give context to what I’m saying.

I think there’s a lot of bits about the profession that people don’t realise unless they’re in it. There’s currently a national shortage of midwives; I’d go as far as to describe it as a crisis. I don’t remember the last shift I worked where we had a full complement of staff. This means the staff are probably doing their very best in difficult circumstances. I often see posts saying my midwife left me etc, but realistically yes, I am going to prioritise the bits of my job that keep people safe rather than the bits that keep people comfortable. It’s shit, but it’s true.

Secondly, I read a lot of posts about how the midwives were just sat at their desk doing paperwork and chatting. I’d rather not do this, but there is an entire office of people who audit everything I write and tell me off if I’ve missed something. For example, I once received a written warning for not performing a blood pressure check during a woman’s labour - it didn’t take into account that the baby arrived so quickly I delivered it in the footwell of their car.

Finally, perception of what’s happening whilst you’re in labour is definitely skewed and Im not judging as I have children myself. What feels like ages waiting for pain relief is actually 15 minutes, which is the time it takes to find a second midwife free to check a controlled drug out of the controlled drug cupboard, mix it with an antiemetic, sign a drug chart, possibly even get it prescribed if required.

So it’s not that I’m saying stuff never happens. But what I’m saying is there’s often very valid reasons for what happened, and perhaps their perception is different from the perception of the staff

Here we go again. It isn't that patients are waiting 15minutes for drugs ffs, it's that they're dying.

But is it the midwives and nurses fault they're understaffed? @Lineofconcepcion

I deal with unsatisfied customers and they're so angry as well but if it were my decision, I WOULD hire more staff. It's not my decision.

Try being an estate agent

The problem with teaching is that all of us at one time went to school and most likely had a shit teacher so know that they still exist.

Yes but there are rubbish or unpleasant people in every job in the world, because a proportion of human beings are incompetent and/or unpleasant. Plus a lot of that is very subjective. There are so many teachers which some students and parents hate but other students and parents think are great!

In my experience.. Re midwives.. Big well respected hospital with great stats.. I met about 20 midwives, out of which 1 was decent. The rest showed either one or all of these qualitites: incompetence, rudeness, disregard for health of their patients (not comfort, I mean health). I've never seen a thread here about ALL midwives being shit, but people rightly complain about fundamental issues within the industry.
Being overworked doesn't justify any of the issues above.

@JoyLurking9to5

So true *@Selkiesarereal* I had several really astonishingly nasty teachers. One who set out to shame me and humiliate me with an audience.

A relative of mine is a teacher and she is/has (?) given me and just me the silent treatment while fawning over all the rest of our relatives. It's so weird, but I think, this blatant emotional dysfunction is from a teacher. wow. Some teachers are good but they are only teachers and unfortunately you can't teach emotional health. They're not asked how they deal with their own dislike of pupils who may be triggering something in them. They're not taught how to avoid projecting on to students. They're not aware they're not aware. (The bad teachers I mean)

This is the type of post that I would normally respond to. Even though it isn't directed at me as a teacher it still upsets me to read and makes me realise how lots and lots of people feel about the teaching profession.

Just to balance the criticism that teachers get…

@namechangetheworld hope you find some inner peace outing yourself. Though part of the dislike of estate agents is that they are allowed to work with little regulation, the system that allows the seemingly too many chancers and spies.

spivs!

Secondly, I read a lot of posts about how the midwives were just sat at their desk doing paperwork and chatting. I’d rather not do this, but there is an entire office of people who audit everything I write and tell me off if I’ve missed something. For example, I once received a written warning for not performing a blood pressure check during a woman’s labour - it didn’t take into account that the baby arrived so quickly I delivered it in the footwell of their car.

I think there are some real misconceptions around paperwork in any kind of health setting - imo it absolutely should come second to care of the patients, however most people I know in healthcare also feel like that too, but hands are tied.
Even as a care assistant the amount of paperwork, and the time allowed for fitting it in just doesn't compute. I can only imagine with labour and birth ,health problems and complex medical needs, that is even more true for nurses and midwives.

We are told they are legal documents, they must be clear, concise, person centred, accurate and legible, we can be and are pulled up on notes that are lacking in detail, things that haven't been written down, things written in the wrong way by the CQC, social services, safeguarding etc - "If it's not written down it didn't happen". It's not acceptable to say that X ate all of his dinner, it has to be what he had, how much he ate, where he ate it, if it was fortified, if it had supplements added, and what (even though you've signed the MAR to say it'd been given), if they ate independently, if they needed help and how much. And that's just one person for one meal.
I understand that they are important to provide a whole picture of a person/illness etc, that others rely on them for the health and wellbeing of the person involved, that they are considered proof of what care has been provided, what has not, what has been refused, what has been accepted.

But, you're supposed to do all this while caring for people as well, and there's no crossover to allow for these legal documents to be written to the standard required, unless of course you put notes on a pad and carry it with you and then do it at the end of your shift - unpaid. But woe betide someone needs to see those notes and they're not up to the minute accurate before you've had chance to update them - because you're busy caring for other people - not acceptable. Also not acceptable to be doing notes while someone wants to go to the toilet, or needs clothes changing.
And yes, we chat whilst doing notes - about the person we're writing about usually, gathering information from others who have dealt with them too to make these legal documents accurate.

So in my 'unskilled' and not a professional occupation, there's those pressures - I can only imagine that the pressure and stakes are much higher for nurses and midwives.
And that, is the fault of those who fail to provide enough people to cover the needs of the patients (including the records that must be kept by law) not the people trying to do it.

@sherrystrull, I don't know what you mean, it upsets you that people have had bad experiences, or upsets you that people think badly of your profession? Teachers shouldn't be revered. They get it wrong sometimes.

I'm sure your colleagues are nice to their other colleagues but I bet they still go in to class and have their favourites who get all the attention and encouragement, the ones they have written off, the ones they dislike.

I defend my profession (pharmacy) on here quite a lot, mostly when people say 'it's just sticking a label on a box'. That phrase triggers me 😂!

[quote JoyLurking9to5]@sherrystrull, I don't know what you mean, it upsets you that people have had bad experiences, or upsets you that people think badly of your profession? Teachers shouldn't be revered. They get it wrong sometimes.

I'm sure your colleagues are nice to their other colleagues but I bet they still go in to class and have their favourites who get all the attention and encouragement, the ones they have written off, the ones they dislike.[/quote]
I don't think teachers should be revered. I had bad ones myself. My children have had some teachers who are better than others.

It's posts like yours where vitriol shines through. Why is a comment about teachers having favourites or giving up on children needed? No teacher I know gives up on children. I work hard and care deeply about the children in my class. Can you honestly not see why it's upsetting to read bitter posts like yours?

I'm sure your colleagues are nice to their other colleagues but I bet they still go in to class and have their favourites who get all the attention and encouragement, the ones they have written off, the ones they dislike.

This,. @JoyLurking9to5 is exactly the sort of post that makes people defensive. You have no idea who that poster's colleagues are. You've never met them, you've had no dealings with them. But you bet they... (insert whatever your beef is with one particular teacher).

The problem with teaching is that all of us at one time went to school and most likely had a shit teacher so know that they still exist.

I think also that people think that having been to school means knowing what working in a school is like and how schools work. There was someone on here once accusing a school of making up jobs for friends of the head teacher because they had a business manager in the office - because why would a school have a business manager?… Majority of schools need and have one. Just because you didn’t notice them as a child or they weren’t a thing when you were a child doesn’t mean it’s a made up job
I think generally people become defensive about their jobs, not just in schools but in all kinds of professions, because so much criticism come from a place of assumption, ignorance and sometimes outright stupidity.