To think teachers should be able to spell

[Brieandcamembert]

I have increasingly noticed recently teachers (often of primary age) who make very basic spelling and grammar errors. Surely having excellent basic skills in this area is an essential criteria for teaching it?

I'm really concerned that we are raising a generation who will have appalling literacy skills.

I have seen the classic "of / have" confusion
I have seen "been" used instead of "being"
I have also seen phonetically similar words interchanged with one another.

It doesn’t really matter. Children gain literacy skills by reading consistently throughout childhood - picture books, kids books, TA books, and then adult books.

Studies show that the impact teachers have on a child’s educational outcomes is actually quite minimal. Kids of clever parents + who also prioritise education and reading do best - and it then goes down from there. The odd spelling error from a class teacher is just a drop in the ocean in the scheme of things.

DSis worked as a TA for a year. She was constantly having to deal with dilemmas like whether to say anything to the teacher who told the class that 10% of 100 was 1. What added insult to injury was that the teachers refused to associate with TAs in the staffroom and generally treated them as inferiors.

I'm a primary teacher and yes the examples you've given are poor. We set the foundations for children's education and shouldn't be making basic language errors.

However, amongst other issues, teacher pay is pretty rubbish for the level of responsibility the job entails. Yes we want talented, intelligent teachers but do many talented, intelligent people want to become teachers? Does a bright graduate want to go into teaching and be underpaid and undervalued or is another career path a more attractive option? As they say- pay peanuts...

[quote medicmummm]@twominutesmore

See where you are coming from but that is the same if not worse in a lot of fields. The NHS for example. Doctor pay rise after the pandemic was not for any junior staff (consulatants only) so we were in the direct line of fire and have no reward to speak of. We were suppose to get an extra day of annual leave but I switched contracts around then and missed out! Great, given that it nearly killed me

So I think gratitude is not proportionate to the risks taken. Look at the stick the NHS gets, I mean the system is broken but very individual tries their very best (mostly) can the same be said about teaching perhaps?[/quote]
Why are you making this a competition for whose had it worse NHS or education.

They’ve both been royally shafted by the government.

With regard to ever individual try’s their best. Can the same be said for teachers.

Firstly - how rude
Secondly - I used to work with the NHS. I’ve met literally thousands of GPs, consultants, junior doctors and nurses. 95% are amazing doing the absolute best they can for their patients. 5% were doing well, for one reason or another.

The same is true of teaching. Vast majority doing a decent job and their best. Some are not up to it. A colleague left last year, very smart but totally disorganised and last minute. Did not relate well to the pupils.

@annabell22

Some teachers have dyslexia- it doesn't mean that they shouldn't become a teacher.

No, it doesn't. But it does mean that they should check, double check, and get someone else to check things like wall displays, letters home to parents, etc.

A teacher's job is to teach children many things, one of which is how to spell. Therefore they cannot and should not be subjected to poor spelling.

@afuckinggoat

I used to teach primary. I agree. I was also shocked at how many teachers were against teaching pure grammar, despite it being on the curriculum and it being essential for understanding our own language patterns in order to unlock MFL for students.

Pure grammar teaching makes writing accessible for children who struggle with writing: who are dyslexic or perhaps aren't exposed to quality literature at home, because it "hacks" the formula for varied sentences. I found that teachers who were against it didn't have a strong grammatical knowledge themselves.

I once walked into a colleague's classroom to see that they had modelled, "Me and my Dad went to the park," on the board. They had no idea that it was incorrect.

You’ve written “Me and my Dad went to the park” incorrectly because “dad” should take a lower case “d”.

[quote SpotALeopard]@takealettermsjones - ah, ok. I had (mis)interpreted your post as saying you can’t be concerned about this issue unless you have perfect SPAG yourself. This is an argument I’ve seen before on mn, and is wrong-headed as it’s a recipe for tolerating increasingly poor standards. I wouldn’t criticise or think less of someone with poor grammar, but I would criticise the system that facilitates it in the first place and then allows it to be passed on to children. Sounds like we’re in agreement there.[/quote]
Absolutely, and well said.

I think if the teacher is of primary age, we can permit a few mistakes

Pure grammar teaching (whatever that is supposed to be) was discredited as an effective didactic approach in the late 1960s.
That's why up until very recently (in academic development terms) we were all so shit at languages. Because we had "la plume de ma tante est sur le banc" and its subsequent useless exercises.
There is a place for grammar teaching, both in L1 and L2, but it needs to be descriptive and inductive or its pointless.

I learned a huge amount about grammar from learning French. My acquisition of English was largely from reading and speaking - but until I started French I had no idea about rules in relation to language. For example I had no idea about regular and irregular verbs - I mean I knew how to conjugate in English but not using rules - I had just memorised it all.

I remember I felt a bit cheated actually.

If a teacher has managed to get a job as a teacher and has dyslexia in quite sure that they would still be able to teach effectively. No one is perfect, I’m dyslexic and I’m a nurse. My sons head teacher is dyslexic too!

I can spell and spot spelling mistakes with my sons, I help them with their grammar and punctuation. However I do occasionally have to double check I’m doing it right as I have a bit of a gap in my education due to going to a terrible school. So there are things I didn’t learn or had to catch up on later on so not perfect and wouldn’t want to be a teacher. But I think it’s also good for kids to understand everyone is different (mistakes can be made) and those kids who do struggle feel less like they will never achieve like I did. But the teacher should have a grasp of the education level they are providing and be competent to teach all levels of children.

Unfortunately it is a fact that wwe would struggle to recruit enough primary teachers if we required perfect spelling and punctuation. So what do we do to cope?

At least one teacher training college used to run an intensive spelling course for those whose spelling was weak. (Unfortunately most people do not go through BEd courses now, which restricts opportunities to do things like that.)
Make sure teachers are in the habit of using spelling and grammar checkers - at least now most things are on powerpoints rather than handwritten on a board, that makes that easier.
Make sure teachers are willing to accept that they may be wrong, or may not know. There's much to be said for "shall we check that in the dictionary?" My daughter has excellent spelling, and with some teachers she knew that they would be fine with an error being pointed out (and with others she never dared).
Know which staff have strong writing skills, and use them to check things like letters, displays and the website. My HoD knew his spelling and grammar were poor, so used to get other members of the department to check and suggest improvements to things like letters.
Dyslexic teachers - be prepared to admit it. In primary, try and give them the TA with good spelling - teamwork.

By the way, when you've just marked half a set of books which claim that 7 x 8 = 54, it is SO easy to make mistakes, especially when you're tired. I expect the same is true with common mis-spellings. The test is the reaction to the child asking about it.

No, it doesn't. But it does mean that they should check, double check, and get someone else to check things like wall displays, letters home to parents, etc

All of this takes time. And who exactly is going to check your displays for you?

Education is on the bones of its arse. There aren’t spare staff knocking around with nothing to do other than triple check letters.

[quote SpotALeopard]@takealettermsjones - ah, ok. I had (mis)interpreted your post as saying you can’t be concerned about this issue unless you have perfect SPAG yourself. This is an argument I’ve seen before on mn, and is wrong-headed as it’s a recipe for tolerating increasingly poor standards. I wouldn’t criticise or think less of someone with poor grammar, but I would criticise the system that facilitates it in the first place and then allows it to be passed on to children. Sounds like we’re in agreement there.[/quote]
Exactly - I would like schools, newspapers and news websites (as well as books of course) to be benchmarks for good English.

Surely teacher training should include SPAG?

I'm rather surprised / concerned to hear anyone suggesting that it's acceptable for some teachers not to know the basics ..........

@takealettermsjones

These threads are always amusing, just for the self-professed SPaG enthusiasts who then make SPaG mistakes in their own posts. There have been at least two already. Top work everyone 👍

And who do you think taught them? Even some who think they know what they're talking about don't. We were taught by people who didn't know what they were talking about and it is getting worse. I fully admit my grammar is appalling and I plan to undertake some remedial work after this thread and also getting some CGP grammar books for DC.

And who do you think taught them?

Probably not the current teachers they are complaining about.

Primary teachers absolutely should be able to spell (perhaps less important for teachers of certain subjects in secondary). I also don’t think they are that badly paid when you take into account the pension and holidays, even in London. In many parts of the country, teacher training is massively oversubscribed- perhaps we need to train more so we have the pick of better people. Same for drs I think.

@PaddleAlongRiver Again, not the point I'm making. I'm all for improvement in education, and I make mistakes too.

It just makes me laugh when those posters who are so quick to gleefully point out errors, rather than engaging with the point OP is making, actually make errors themselves. Glass houses and stones!

An occasional minor error, misspelling of an unusual word etc, np.

Regular basic errors implying a relatively low level of grammar and literacy - not acceptable.

@Brieandcamembert

I have increasingly noticed recently teachers (often of primary age) who make very basic spelling and grammar errors. Surely having excellent basic skills in this area is an essential criteria for teaching it?

I'm really concerned that we are raising a generation who will have appalling literacy skills.

I have seen the classic "of / have" confusion
I have seen "been" used instead of "being"
I have also seen phonetically similar words interchanged with one another.

So have you contacted the teacher about this?

My DD used to get her spelling list which was typed by the teacher (or TA) and every single week there was at least one mistake.
So loads of kids were getting marked down for spelling the word correctly and others were learning the wrong spelling.
This was in Y5 and it did get flagged after a few parents mentioned it. After that someone else did the list of spellings.
I thought that was awful but I don't know if the teacher was dyslexic. Really all letters etc should be double checked and if teacher has an issue with spelling they should really use a dictionary but it's not the be all and end all.

I wouldn't say I 'gleefully' pointed out errors. I took exception to the teacher 'gleefully' pointing out errors to DD - when in fact DD was correct. But that teacher would have taken issue with me pointing it out, was really quite unpleasant when poor confused little DD raised it, and so she and I suffered that year in silence.

Other teachers would have been very much, 'oh silly me! Of course, you are right, that is how you spell 'friend'. Not that one.

This was full on aggressive correction in red ink - except it unfortunately was a remedy for a wrong that did not exist!

I know that teachers aren't perfect - I don't expect them to be. I'm fairly pro-teacher, as my posts would attest. I know the conditions are shit, the pay is worse, and the only thing possibly worse than dealing with the kids is the parents.

This is the one teacher that I've had that issue with, and as I said it was a very educational experience for both myself and DD!

@SoupDragon

And who do you think taught them?

Probably not the current teachers they are complaining about.

No, but probably the same teachers who taught me. I left primary and entered secondary feeling very confused RE grammar. In fact I remember for my GCSEs trying to figure out to vs too. I think more due to class sizes, no individual attention rather than the teachers not knowing. Now those children are adults teaching children what they don't understand.

For context, I have taught for 25 years, mostly in secondary schools but in recent years also in primary schools. I'm a bit of a spelling and grammar buff (MFL teacher), but I'm not a fan of unnecessary pedantry.

Imo, expecting all teachers of all subjects at secondary level to have excellent grammar and spelling is unreasonable and unrealistic. A chemistry teacher, for example, should make effort to eliminate mistakes in worksheets, Power Points etc, but making mistakes when writing on the board is understandable.

English teachers, MFL teachers and primary school teachers should really have excellent spelling and grammar. Teachers of essay-heavy subjects, e.g. humanities ideally need to have good spelling and grammar.

My dc's spelling was better than that of their (lovely) primary school teachers. It used to infuriate me when their work was incorrectly corrected, or when the teachers patently didn't really understand the grammar in the SPAG papers they were training the kids to do. Everyone makes mistakes, but lack of knowledge or ability in the subjects you're supposedly trained to teach is not ok. I constantly see SPAG mistakes in classroom displays made by primary school teachers.

Dd's year 6 teacher called her the grammar police used to ask dd to spell check and grammar check worksheets before she handed them out and check what she had written on the board. She was perfectly competent but dd could find a misplaced semi colon in a wall of text and was known to never make a spelling mistake. She corrected many spelling mistakes made by teachers through the years but only the y6 teacher decided to harness her ability.