To think teachers should be able to spell

[Brieandcamembert]

I have increasingly noticed recently teachers (often of primary age) who make very basic spelling and grammar errors. Surely having excellent basic skills in this area is an essential criteria for teaching it?

I'm really concerned that we are raising a generation who will have appalling literacy skills.

I have seen the classic "of / have" confusion
I have seen "been" used instead of "being"
I have also seen phonetically similar words interchanged with one another.

Yes, it’s appalling.

IMO teachers should be paid more, but there should also be a stringent SPAG test at the beginning of training, and any who are still shown to be lacking after compulsory remedial work should not be allowed to proceed.

Most basic mistakes are very easily explained and corrected - there is not some great mystique to them.

As for split infinitives, AFAIK it was the stickler 18th century grammarians who decreed that because you cannot split a Latin infinitive (and Latin was thought to be a ‘perfect’ language) therefore you should not be allowed to split an English one.

Which was always a rubbish reason, IMO, and should no longer apply. In any case, adhering strictly to that rule can result in some really clunky-sounding sentences.

Children deserve high quality teaching and if a person cannot provide that then they shouldn't be in the classroom

Children do deserve high quality teaching. But there’s not much incentivising highly skilled, well educated people to enter the profession.

I know the headteacher at my school is really struggling to recruit decent staff.

These threads are always amusing, just for the self-professed SPaG enthusiasts who then make SPaG mistakes in their own posts. There have been at least two already. Top work everyone 👍

I’ve worked as a proof reader and I still make mistakes when I’m exhausted and marking work! I agree that ideally our SPAG should be perfect but it’s very unlikely it will be when there’s a shortage of teachers and we can’t just pick only teachers with impeccable English. Plus, as I said, even those of us who are generally highly accurate have off days!

@takealettermsjones

These threads are always amusing, just for the self-professed SPaG enthusiasts who then make SPaG mistakes in their own posts. There have been at least two already. Top work everyone 👍

Not a problem if the posters don’t work in a job where they have to teach SPAG to others.

@Arianya

If you can’t do the job then you shouldn’t be hired to do the job. That includes teachers who aren’t able to teach spelling because they don’t know how to spell themselves and aren’t capable of using tools such as dictionaries and spellcheckers to correct their mistakes.

I agree with you. But what to do when teachers are leaving in droves and the job isn't attractive enough to recruit trainees of a decent standard? Ten years of pay freezes and below-inflation increases, parents who treat us like staff and constant government tinkering, changes and interference.

During the pandemic these boards were full of people talking about the lazy teachers sitting at home while everyone I know worked every single day (including the Easter and May holidays that year) taught themselves new technology, delivered food parcels to vulnerable families, carried out welfare checks and goodness knows what else. Our reward for that was criticism from parents, the government and the media, followed by a pay freeze.

Agree but maybe that’s what happens when everyone can get into university these days.

Surely though, to teach something you only have to be one step ahead of the student

My grammar and spelling is awful- I try but i’m very dyslexic. Shouldn’t be a barrier to a career though- luckily I don’t need to write so much in my job (any more)

@takealettermsjones

These threads are always amusing, just for the self-professed SPaG enthusiasts who then make SPaG mistakes in their own posts. There have been at least two already. Top work everyone 👍

This is my favourite so far: That teacher was very education for both DD and I. For all the wrong reasons!

My son is a 2nd year primary education Uni student. He had to pass the government standard tests before he was accepted but as stated these have stopped but his uni now do their own tests. He only needed to have GCSEs at level 4 in both English and Maths. He has always been much weaker at English gained a 4 at language GCSE but 9 in Maths. He also has A level maths. Knowing this he chose a maths specialism for his primary education uni course. Obviously, he will still need to teach English but knows he has to work harder here. He's recently completed his school based training and had fantastic feedback. Yes in reality his English could be better and I'm sure he will make mistakes but he is young, male and committed to teaching.

@PaddlingLikeADuck

My son’s primary teacher doesn’t know her six or seven times table.

He’s always coming home with the results of his multiplication tests and she ticks answers that are wrong.

It’s madness.

What has she said when you've questioned/mentioned it? If it's a regular occurrence, then it's not on! Is she definitely marking them herself- not the kids peer-marking or a TA? The latter is also unacceptable, btw. One or two errors is forgivable- class of 30 and however many questions per child...but regular mistakes isn't.

That teacher was very education for both DD and I. For all the wrong reasons!

PMSL, mea culpa, and most definitely hoist with my own petard!

@twominutesmore

See where you are coming from but that is the same if not worse in a lot of fields. The NHS for example. Doctor pay rise after the pandemic was not for any junior staff (consulatants only) so we were in the direct line of fire and have no reward to speak of. We were suppose to get an extra day of annual leave but I switched contracts around then and missed out! Great, given that it nearly killed me

So I think gratitude is not proportionate to the risks taken. Look at the stick the NHS gets, I mean the system is broken but very individual tries their very best (mostly) can the same be said about teaching perhaps?

There's a difference in a spontaneous brain-fart moment, e.g. in marking through a mountain of books, and in materials that are going to be printed off and distributed (worksheets/ letters) and have a better opportunity for proof reading. Accepting an error and turning it into a teaching point is vastly better than plain ignorance.

DH makes many classic dyslexia type errors (DS is diagnosed and strongly dyslexic), so he knows that he needs to get others to proofread critical documents. I had rearrange his PhD into English so that others could then proofread for the technical content.

Spellchecks have their uses, but you have to know the language you are using. The "LocalLive" news article this morning used sever instead of severe. Spell check doesn't care about the difference. Journalists are supposed to be excellent at English. It's a growing issue across all sectors.

The problem is that as grammar errors become endemic they become normal and harder to identify. Does it matter? When it distorts or corrupts meaning or the information given, then yes.

@takealettermsjones - I think SPAG is important, but am sure I make grammar and punctuation mistakes myself all the time. I’ve got the basics Spelling was prioritised when I was at school, but grammar wasn’t really taught. Punctuation was taught on a basic level only. I got a first in English from a good university, but it was only a few years after graduation that I learnt there was a difference between ‘less’ and ‘fewer’. I’d been merrily using ‘less’ in all contexts up until then. It’s our educational system that is at fault, not individuals.

@Thereisnolight Not a problem if the posters don’t work in a job where they have to teach SPAG to others.

It is when the sanctimonious tone comes out ("I just can't believe the state of education these days!" etc).

I don't need my children's teachers to have excellent grammar skills. I need them to be excellent learning facilitators, where my children are encouraged to learn and enjoy learning in a safe environment. As it happens my now teen dc both have excellent English language skills, which comes from the love of books and learning instilled in them by inspirational ks1 teachers.

Unless you are comfortable with people being discriminated against because of a disability, then yes you must accept this.

Do you think I would be able to get a job at the BBC as a continuity announcer if I had that form of Tourette's that causes unexpected swearing?

Or work as an airline pilot if I was blind?

A teacher with dyslexia may be fine for a non-related subject, but for someone who is going to teach my child SPAG - it surely shouldn't be someone who can't manage SPAG for themselves?

@PineappleWilson

The first piece of homework my son had at school was to learn a song. Ten little monkey's sitting on the bed [sic]. Friends advised that I still had a long way to go with the school so not to die on this hill, but who the hell uses an apostrophy for a plural?

Agree that's a howler...

*apostrophe

@SpotALeopard I agree with you, but that's not the point I'm making. I make SPaG mistakes all the time, but I don't come onto forums criticising others for making mistakes.

I just find it amusing when the nitpickers are shown up as being imperfect themselves, what can I say 🤷🏻‍♀️

I thought the split infinitive was a load of old-fashioned bollocks now?

www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2017/sep/25/to-boldly-go-split-infinitive-grammatical-error-research#:~:text=A%20split%20infinitive%20is%20when,people%20still%20agree%20with%20them.

This was the same in my sons book, stating Nicholas should read his sentence and make sure he uses his Capitals and Commas, only to find said teacher not used His capitals and commas in his appalling handwritten message, on other pages! I showed my friend these examples and we both said he'd be so embarrassed to be shown up ! just a thing that he would regularly like to red pen mark through my sons Eng Lit books!

@afuckinggoat

I used to teach primary. I agree. I was also shocked at how many teachers were against teaching pure grammar, despite it being on the curriculum and it being essential for understanding our own language patterns in order to unlock MFL for students.

Pure grammar teaching makes writing accessible for children who struggle with writing: who are dyslexic or perhaps aren't exposed to quality literature at home, because it "hacks" the formula for varied sentences. I found that teachers who were against it didn't have a strong grammatical knowledge themselves.

I once walked into a colleague's classroom to see that they had modelled, "Me and my Dad went to the park," on the board. They had no idea that it was incorrect.

Pure grammar teaching (whatever that is supposed to be) was discredited as an effective didactic approach in the late 1960s. That's why up until very recently (in academic development terms) we were all so shit at languages. Because we had "la plume de ma tante est sur le banc" and its subsequent useless exercises. There is a place for grammar teaching, both in L1 and L2, but it needs to be descriptive and inductive or its pointless.

I agree but it's not really seen as important. You don't need to be able to write to get a degree, these days, and you can't fail anything anymore...

@Smudge77

This was the same in my sons book, stating Nicholas should read his sentence and make sure he uses his Capitals and Commas, only to find said teacher not used His capitals and commas in his appalling handwritten message, on other pages! I showed my friend these examples and we both said he'd be so embarrassed to be shown up ! just a thing that he would regularly like to red pen mark through my sons Eng Lit books!

Your own use of capitals, commas and apostrophes is dodgy, to say the least.

@takealettermsjones - ah, ok. I had (mis)interpreted your post as saying you can’t be concerned about this issue unless you have perfect SPAG yourself. This is an argument I’ve seen before on mn, and is wrong-headed as it’s a recipe for tolerating increasingly poor standards. I wouldn’t criticise or think less of someone with poor grammar, but I would criticise the system that facilitates it in the first place and then allows it to be passed on to children. Sounds like we’re in agreement there.