To think teachers should be able to spell

[Brieandcamembert]

I have increasingly noticed recently teachers (often of primary age) who make very basic spelling and grammar errors. Surely having excellent basic skills in this area is an essential criteria for teaching it?

I'm really concerned that we are raising a generation who will have appalling literacy skills.

I have seen the classic "of / have" confusion
I have seen "been" used instead of "being"
I have also seen phonetically similar words interchanged with one another.

@Bbq1 some people did.

For several decades up to about 2000, most state schools in England taught little or no grammar, and it is still normal for school leavers to know virtually nothing about grammar; for example, in 1998 it was found that “younger teachers had generally not been taught grammar explicitly as part of their own education” (Anon 1998b:26).

Most younger teachers know very little grammar and are suspicious of explicit grammar teaching. Not surprisingly, therefore, new recruits entering teacher-training courses typically either know very little grammar (Williamson and Hardman 1995) or have no confidence in their knowledge, presumably because they have picked it up in an unsystematic way (Cajkler and Hislam 2002).

Some older teachers were taught some grammar under the old system, but this knowledge is a mixed blessing as a preparation for teaching the new syllabus (“Older teachers did not see their school experience of traditional formal grammar as relevant to the present” Anon 1998b:26)

@PAFMO because it really doesn't matter does it
You knew what she meant perfectly well so why jump on it
These posts are generally just full of judgement and pretentious people
Most people give zero fucks for the odd mistake
And don't pull me up on any grammar or spelling as I don't care , just continue being judging others and putting them down if that makes you feel better

Surely having excellent basic skills in this area is an essential criteria for teaching it?

I presume you meant "criterion".

I'm not sure I agree with the notion of not having enough teachers, so the standards have to drop. I do hope no one ever takes up that idea with surgeons

But surgeons and other medical staff are brought in from abroad. We don't know if the standard of their training is the same as here

@WhenSheWasBad not if it affects their taxes they don't or if heaven forbid a teacher may earn more than some of them

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll then teach your kids yourself as well it doesn't just have to be at school
But generally this is a teacher bashing thread by those who think they are better
In the real world grammar to a high extent is not majorly used in day to day life or business
If you have an issue with a member of staff bring it up with them

The thing is many of you claiming to have perfect grammar have been pulled up by someone else
We don't live in the 1900's anymore we don't speak the same as people did then , so some of the more complex stuff isn't needed

@Debroglie

Teachers are massively overworked and make mistakes. I teach physics. I’m pretty academic and have a phd. I wrote on the board last week 2 x 3 = 5 My year 12s reacted with amusement and disgust in equal measure. (I do know that 2x3=/=5) I also spelt a word wrong in another lesson (forgotten what the word was now but the TA corrected me.) We’re not robots. We’re human. We’re tired. We can’t be perfect.

I don't think that's what the OP is talking about though. It is talking about primary school teachers whose job it is to teach basic grammar and spelling, constantly getting things wrong and not understanding why it's wrong or insisting that they are right and consistently using poor spelling and grammar. I think that is a very different problem to a tired physics teacher making a minor mathematical error on a board which all teenagers in the room knew to be wrong, and then correcting it when pointed out....

@Brieandcamembert

I'm not sure I agree with the notion of not having enough teachers, so the standards have to drop. I do hope no one ever takes up that idea with surgeons.

A surgeon(and other examples given ) do only one thing. They cut. A teacher (especially in primary) does and teaches many things ,they don't just spell. Like I said, I do believe teachers should be able to spell and use grammar and punctuation correctly but if they don't, it doesn't mean they're a crap teacher or that they shouldn't teach at all.

My grammar and spelling are pretty good - sometimes better than the skills of some of the teachers I've worked with (I'm sure I've made some mistakes in this post just to embarrass myself further) but I bet you wouldn't be happy for your child to be taught by me(a TA) on a regular basis just because of that.

@IdontWanna, grammar was a dirty word when I was teaching EFL abroad in the 80s, to mostly speakers of Arabic. We weren’t supposed to teach it as such - they were supposed to absorb correct forms by some sort of linguistic osmosis.

But the poor things were expected to pass exams where they’d be marked down for mistakes, and most of them were sponsored by their various government employers, so doing reasonably well was a big thing.

I once took someone else’s elementary class shortly before one such exam, and asked them for any queries.
One chap said, ‘Teacher, when I say ‘was’ and when I say ‘were’?’

Nowhere in their wretched textbook was it laid out anywhere for them to learn - they were supposed to absorb it piecemeal.
Of course I wrote it on the board for them to copy.

Ditto the irregular verbs - no list of e.g. bring/brought, see/saw, etc.
I used to type one out and photocopy for my own classes - too bad if I wasn’t supposed to.

I gather that the ‘theory’ was that they’d absorb these things in the same way children do - but native-speaker children have years of immersion, not two hours once a week! - and will often still say ‘bringed’ or ‘goed’ even at 4 or 5.

I would hope that that ‘theory’ has now been debunked!

Do many teachers teach 'should of' rather than 'should have'? I had to take spelling, grammar, maths and writing tests for my school based training (scitt) a couple of years ago. Anyone who didn't make the grade had to attend extra classes and resit the tests. However, as everyone has to pay £9k to train, it's highly possible that teacher training programmes lower entry requirements to make up numbers.

Teachers are ridiculously underpaid for the skill level required. I firmly believe that teacher pay should be doubled, to make it a more attractive career for top quality candidates. My salary is a quarter of my previous salary in finance, but the skill level required is higher.

[quote worriedatthistime]@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll then teach your kids yourself as well it doesn't just have to be at school
But generally this is a teacher bashing thread by those who think they are better
In the real world grammar to a high extent is not majorly used in day to day life or business
If you have an issue with a member of staff bring it up with them
[/quote]
In the real world grammar to a high extent is not majorly used in day to day life or business

Not quite sure what you mean by "real world" but this is just not true.

www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20180723-the-commas-that-cost-companies-millions

@2bazookas

The only time I experienced this from a teacher (letter to parents requiring response) I corrected the error with a red pen.

For some reason it only happened once.

I always wanted to do that with letters from parents, especially the well-educated ones who thought they were so superior to their child's teachers.

@SwedishEdithim when people say every day in life of business, they’re not referring to legal contracts/documents.

@KpopArmy

I was a bit miffed when I spotted the ‘word of the day’ on a yr5 classroom board was spelt incorrectly (I admit, I had to do a subtle check on my phone, as I doubted myself). I appreciate we all make mistakes, but I did think that was quite poor.

When I was training we were sent to observe in a school and the teacher wrote hampster on the board. Quite a quandry in which to place a first year student.

When I was training we were sent to observe in a school and the teacher wrote hampster on the board. Quite a quandry in which to place a first year student.

You've mis...

...nope. Can't bring myself to do it.

I’m a teacher and routinely embarrassed by the grammatical and spelling errors of my (often senior) colleagues, especially on letters that are sent out to parents. Not many other people seem to mind, so maybe I’m just a pedantic old crone.

grammar was a dirty word when I was teaching EFL abroad in the 80s

A similar thing occurred with teaching Maths in the 70s, 80s and 90s, any form of rote learning, eg times tables, was banned, I once heard a Head berating his wife who was doing supply because she was teaching tables.

@annabell22

Some teachers have dyslexia- it doesn't mean that they shouldn't become a teacher.

No, but if they are teaching reading, they need to work on this and let children know that sometimes these words can get confused.

@JudgeJ, I once did it on a printed annual appraisal form (for me) at work - a very basic mistake, though I forget which.
There was never any comment but I did enjoy wielding the red pen!

Funniest teacher error I ever saw was ages ago, when a dd at 11 or so had to make the dreaded cookery apron at school. She loathed needlework, so I need up doing most of it, and though I say it myself, I’m reasonably competent at sewing.

It came back with, ‘C+. Neatness and accuracy are 2 skills which you must practice.’

I still think it was very noble of me not to point out her clanger of a mistake!

@Debroglie

Teachers are massively overworked and make mistakes. I teach physics. I’m pretty academic and have a phd. I wrote on the board last week 2 x 3 = 5 My year 12s reacted with amusement and disgust in equal measure. (I do know that 2x3=/=5) I also spelt a word wrong in another lesson (forgotten what the word was now but the TA corrected me.) We’re not robots. We’re human. We’re tired. We can’t be perfect.

'Congratulations for spotting today's deliberate mistake!' used to be my response to my errors like this. I always warned my exam classes that the mistakes they make will be 1 x 1 = 2 as often as the bigger mistakes. Recently I was running through some Higher papers to help my grandaughter and I misread a couple of questions, another common, human error. 'When all else fails, read the b*** question' , something else I told my classes. As this poster says, we're all human.

Yes it’s so widespread! I’ve had my year 1 daughter’s written work ‘corrected’ to cross out the correct spelling and instead write the wrong spelling.

This is it, really, I think. Your daughter’s teacher clearly sees it as their job to ‘correct errors’ – hence their trying to do it to your daughter’s work.

Either we see SPaG as unimportant, in which case nobody cares, mentions, teaches or corrects; or we do value it and seek to maintain standards, especially amongst those charged with teaching it. We cannot have both.

@worriedatthistime

I’m somewhat confused as that doesn’t appear to answer my question at all, following your earlier assertion that I don’t know the definition of ‘discrimination’.

Does that apply in everything? If you employed an electrician who left exposed live wires and short-circuited your home, would he be justified in retorting that you should just rewire your house yourself, then – rather than that he learn to do his job properly or that a competent electrician (as he falsely claimed to be) should do it instead?

This is not a teacher-bashing thread at all. To suggest that just reminds me of when you tell teenagers not to dump their clothes on the floor or leave cereal bowls everywhere and their instant reply is “You hate me!!”

Most teachers do an amazing job, and it is indeed a very challenging career that requires skill and dedication; but this is one particular area that seems to be universally weak across the board. Should we strive and desire for teachers in general (in fact, people in any career or experts in any area of life) to be better at what they do, when there are clear weak spots, or otherwise should we just accept that mediocrity is the highest that we want to aim for in certain key areas?

I don’t know what your job is or in which circles you move, but grammar is very important in my day to day life and in the world that I recognise. It’s clearly not a skill that everybody has, but it is no excuse to claim that, if you struggle with a particular basic skill – a building block of normal communication - then it’s categorically not important to anybody. It’s a good thing that web developers don’t feel the same way, when it comes to the unexciting but vital coding that makes computers ‘talk’ to and ‘understand’ each other.

I have mentioned things to staff before, when I’ve seen significant SPaG errors – especially in displays – and in a kind, friendly, non-patronising way. To be honest, the responses usually suggest a lack of interest, a belief that it’s petty and unimportant (as we have seen on this thread) or a general air of assumption that they must be right as they are a teacher and I am not. It’s a self-fulfilling belief, really – that those who regularly do something must be the best at doing it at all times and should never be questioned - even on occasions when they are very clearly doing it wrongly.

I'm really embarrassed seeing so many fellow teachers on this thread defend regular poor spelling and punctuation. If primary education is as important as we all claim it to be, then children should not be exposed to incorrect spelling, and especially not to their own correct spelling being marked as incorrect. There simply is no excuse for that.

There should be a straightforward way for SMTs to pick up on any staff weakness in that area, and for there to be further training for that member of staff. It shouldn't be brushed under the carpet with the excuse of "well teaching is a hard job so you can't expect perfection".
There are some things that can slide in a primary school, but spelling, punctuation and basic grammar ('could of' is simply inexcusable) are too important for that.

Moreover, I realise that it's a glorified gameshow, but if anybody saw the recent series of The Apprentice, there was a point where not one person in one of the teams knew the correct spelling of the word 'Arctic'. All of these people will have gone to school and completed a standard education.

Not only were they confident that they supposedly knew the correct spelling, when they clearly didn't, but they didn't even doubt themselves to the extent that anybody suggested spending a few moments in checking it.

If you saw the response of the industry representatives to this, you would realise that correctness in basic language skills IS important - and the inability to either know or care to use simple at-hand tools to check it will bring ridicule and rejection in the real world, where a certain simple standard is required.

Even more concerning, none of the 'boys'' team seemed to know that the word 'whiffy' universally means bad-smelling and quite happily gave it as a name to their character who was supposed to encourage children in good, clean hygiene habits using a toothbrush unwittingly designed to look like a turd.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Yes it’s so widespread! I’ve had my year 1 daughter’s written work ‘corrected’ to cross out the correct spelling and instead write the wrong spelling.

This is it, really, I think. Your daughter’s teacher clearly sees it as their job to ‘correct errors’ – hence their trying to do it to your daughter’s work.

Either we see SPaG as unimportant, in which case nobody cares, mentions, teaches or corrects; or we do value it and seek to maintain standards, especially amongst those charged with teaching it. We cannot have both.

@worriedatthistime

I’m somewhat confused as that doesn’t appear to answer my question at all, following your earlier assertion that I don’t know the definition of ‘discrimination’.

Does that apply in everything? If you employed an electrician who left exposed live wires and short-circuited your home, would he be justified in retorting that you should just rewire your house yourself, then – rather than that he learn to do his job properly or that a competent electrician (as he falsely claimed to be) should do it instead?

This is not a teacher-bashing thread at all. To suggest that just reminds me of when you tell teenagers not to dump their clothes on the floor or leave cereal bowls everywhere and their instant reply is “You hate me!!”

Most teachers do an amazing job, and it is indeed a very challenging career that requires skill and dedication; but this is one particular area that seems to be universally weak across the board. Should we strive and desire for teachers in general (in fact, people in any career or experts in any area of life) to be better at what they do, when there are clear weak spots, or otherwise should we just accept that mediocrity is the highest that we want to aim for in certain key areas?

I don’t know what your job is or in which circles you move, but grammar is very important in my day to day life and in the world that I recognise. It’s clearly not a skill that everybody has, but it is no excuse to claim that, if you struggle with a particular basic skill – a building block of normal communication - then it’s categorically not important to anybody. It’s a good thing that web developers don’t feel the same way, when it comes to the unexciting but vital coding that makes computers ‘talk’ to and ‘understand’ each other.

I have mentioned things to staff before, when I’ve seen significant SPaG errors – especially in displays – and in a kind, friendly, non-patronising way. To be honest, the responses usually suggest a lack of interest, a belief that it’s petty and unimportant (as we have seen on this thread) or a general air of assumption that they must be right as they are a teacher and I am not. It’s a self-fulfilling belief, really – that those who regularly do something must be the best at doing it at all times and should never be questioned - even on occasions when they are very clearly doing it wrongly.

1. Proper grammar wasn't taught properly for years as late as the early 2000s. The change wasn't immediate either , and the government glossed over that particular lack of skill.

2.The main difference in my eyes is that a good teacher will know,accept and admit their own limitations and failings and are happy to be corrected and keep trying to improve or ask for help .

1. Just like the surgeon example,an electrician has one "job". A teacher doesn't just spell. I know brilliant teachers that are a bit crappy at spelling so they use spell check, try to prepare modelled writing in advance ,use dictionaries or other adults in the classroom for support/to check when they're not sure. Mistakes still sneak in sometimes.

1. What should happen now to solve this? Fire all the teachers that are "sub par " ? We don't have enough as there is. Rise the standards for people applying for teacher training from now on?Sure, but then you also have to support them appropriately, including financially, and pay them accordingly after qualifying at the very least. Demanding excellence is pointless when you don't reward it properly.