To ask regarding COVID - what does 'we just have to live with it' look like in real life?

[Fay2121]

I keep hearing the phrase.

What is the reality of 'we just have to live with it'.

@MangyInseam

What I am saying is that locking people into institutions to keep them safe for their own good isn't an acceptable thing to do. Nor is telling them they can't have visitors.

What's your alternative plan for those people?

More people have the virus here than ever before.

Some are still getting ill enough to need hospital care:
We have more people in our local hospital with the virus now than we did at the peak of lockdown. (It was just under 100 in Jan 2021 and is well over 100 now).

There is a difference in that we have half the number in ICU than we did during the peak in lockdown.

People ARE getting ill enough to be hospitalised fewer are ill enough to need intensive-care beds.

The NHS here is struggling to cover non-covid matters. This is what 'living with the virus' means.

No more testing.
Annual vaccination.
Organisations/schools etc being far less prescriptive about who is allowed in.
If you feel really ill, stay at home.
If not feeling ill, carry on as normal.

So almost exactly like 2019 - if very simple.

someone at work has it...i just avoid them or keep well back

they would be out the door if they took anymore time off sick.

First, it's who dies. I think we've tolerated the high number of Covid (and flu) deaths because it's mainly the elderly and those with pre-exisitng conditions. Which says a lot about us as a society. If it were young adults or children dying at these rates, I suspect it would not be tolerated.

Why do you think it is that so many older people, and especially those in nursing homes (in some it's almost 100%) have DNR orders, whereas you almost never see children with them?

@Dishh

*@MangyInseam*

What I am saying is that locking people into institutions to keep them safe for their own good isn't an acceptable thing to do. Nor is telling them they can't have visitors.

What's your alternative plan for those people?

Not telling them they can't go where they want and see who they want. Normal human rights, freedom of movement, freedom of association.

Normally if you lock an adult into a place it's considered something like kidnapping.

In the case of people who don't have capacity, that decision goes to those who are charged with making decisions for them.

But this idea that it is better for such people to be locked into an institution and see no one - in some cases people have been locked into their rooms for weeks - so they don't get exposed to covid - is horrific.

[quote MajorCarolDanvers]What I am saying is that locking people into institutions to keep them safe for their own good isn't an acceptable thing to do. Nor is telling them they can't have visitors

It's still happening in Scotland. Today.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/20044342.call-scrap-scottish-care-home-close-contact-isolation/[/quote]
Yes, here too.

We have "assisted death" where I live and there has been at least one case where they know a resident in a home moved forward her application in anticipation of a second lockdown. And at the time there was some thought by those who were involved in processing applications and such that once an analysis was done, there would be an increase overall.

I think 'living with' is 2019, but with more disruptions to services, more uncertainty around things like holidays/nights out and more pressure on the health service.

I don't think there's much of an alternative right now. Hopefully the impacts will abate in time and if they don't, we'll have to adjust how certain things work. So looking at what the health service can and can't deliver for example.

But this idea that it is better for such people to be locked into an institution and see no one - in some cases people have been locked into their rooms for weeks - so they don't get exposed to covid - is horrific.

I agree. At some point we have to have a grown up conversation about how quality of life matters too. Gaining some extra years by being shut away from the world is not necessarily worth it to people in this position.

Isn't there an issue though with nursing homes that you are not just possibly infecting your relative but others in the home.

Many years before COVID my GM was having a big birthday when in her care home. I was still recovering from norovirus, well in myself but not yet passed the 48 hour quarantine period. I didn't visit her, not just because I didn't want to pass norovirus to her but didn't want to risk bringing it into the home

It pisses me off when I am having to live with it but I still can't see my doctor face to face.

Isn't there an issue though with nursing homes that you are not just possibly infecting your relative but others in the home.

Yes.

That's always been true.

It may complicate, but doesn't negate the fact that isolating vulnerable older people (as we've been doing) is going to have enormous consequences for their well being and quality of life. It needs to be talked about more widely.

@toomuchlaundry

Isn't there an issue though with nursing homes that you are not just possibly infecting your relative but others in the home.

Many years before COVID my GM was having a big birthday when in her care home. I was still recovering from norovirus, well in myself but not yet passed the 48 hour quarantine period. I didn't visit her, not just because I didn't want to pass norovirus to her but didn't want to risk bringing it into the home

It's very reasonable if you have norovirus or the flu to avoid visiting an elderly person in a nursing home, or for that matter going anywhere you don't have to.

That is in no way comparable to telling people they cannot have visitors, or go out, for six months, or even three months. Even if it is to "protect others".

The “live with its” think it is cold or flu and we can just call in sick if unwell and that’s fine. This is despite the fact that no country anywhere in the world has managed the virus this way, despite the fact that variants and sub variants have emerged, each one with more of a sting than the last. This is because for some reason they think we can just declare it is all over and despite the fact the NHS is still crippled with dealing with this “really minor” variant and there isn’t a single bit of science to support their “living with it’ model. They then will complain when schools don’t have enough teachers, the NHS doesn’t have enough staff and their train was cancelled again.

Of course, saying this will mean I’m branded a lockdown lover or some kind of doom monger. There is a middle ground of sensible mitigations which if implemented properly and followed correctly could really help but people don’t want to do those either and so we will basically just have to see the economy fucked for longer until whatever the natural end of this thing is.

There is a middle ground of sensible mitigations which if implemented properly and followed correctly could really help

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what are they?

China is using hard lockdowns and they aren't able to contain omicron. South Korea, much beloved of those into 'sensible mitigations' had the highest levels in the world last week. Countries with mask mandates faring worse than neighbouring countries without.

variants and sub variants have emerged, each one with more of a sting than the last.

That's not true of omicron for starters

@BoredZelda This is despite the fact that no country anywhere in the world has managed the virus this way,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some of the Scandinavian countries lifted pretty much all restrictions?

What do you think of this?

There is a friend's birthday on Saturday. She booked an afternoon tea for four of us. It involves one friend coming to town on the train to meet 2 of us. Then the 3 of us getting a taxi to the venue. The other person lives near the venue. The friend who is getting the train has cancelled. She is frightened of a taxi. She said she wouldn't feel comfortable.

It doesn't bother me. Does it bother you?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't some of the Scandinavian countries lifted pretty much all restrictions?

True. Also ROI (who were among the most conservative countries in the early stages, so can't be accused of doing this lightly)

It's very reasonable if you have norovirus or the flu to avoid visiting an elderly person in a nursing home, or for that matter going anywhere you don't have to

I’m seeing a disconnect between these statements…

That is in no way comparable to telling people they cannot have visitors, or go out, for six months, or even three months. Even if it is to "protect others"

It only works if you don’t think covid is actually as much of a concern to this group as norovirus or flu?

Largely restrictions are in place, in nursing homes certainly, to protect residents, not others. The frequency of this happening will depend on the circulation in the wider community, when one resident has covid symptomatically its impossible to ignore it.

Essentially this is one of the last groups to Come out of the pandemic and we’re crossing fingers that circulation in the community drops drastically so it isn’t an ongoing issue and becomes something that is encountered as often as norovirus or flu.

The rest of the country may have made a conscious decision that we’re happy living with covid but there’s still sections of society where that’s essentially a death wish and not a freedom anyone with a duty of care can facilitate.

I have some personal stake in this, my df is currently eol with heart failure and other diagnoses and a DNR in place and resident in a nursing home meaning my face to face contact with has been and continues to affected by covid restrictions. He’s had it twice, once he was completely asymptomatic and once he was miserably ill but not enough to be any closer to death. It’s beyond shit but I don’t know if he could comprehend what the decision to opt out of restrictions actually might mean, he’s making his peace with dying but everyone’s focussed on that being a good death not one where he’s surrounded by people in full on PPE and experiencing unnecessary pain and fear. Truthfully there’s very little that can be offered to this group even in terms of palliative care, no one is under any illusion that antivirals or interventions will even be offered. Those with responsibility for their care shouldn’t be asked to not do what their job is, caring for and protecting their clients.

@carefullycourageous

We can see the benefits of air filtration in two settings, one medical one educational, the analysis has been done.

can you link to those settings, the analysis that has been done?

@TheKeatingFive

There is a middle ground of sensible mitigations which if implemented properly and followed correctly could really help

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what are they?

China is using hard lockdowns and they aren't able to contain omicron. South Korea, much beloved of those into 'sensible mitigations' had the highest levels in the world last week. Countries with mask mandates faring worse than neighbouring countries without.

variants and sub variants have emerged, each one with more of a sting than the last.

That's not true of omicron for starters

Possibly the 'properly followed' is a nod to measures that perform better in controlled conditions than they do in the big wide world with actual humans being normal and inconvenient.

@Invasionofthegutsnatchers

Teachers with no access to LFTs unless they pay for them out of their own pockets, coming to work with a temperature and flu symptoms, battling through 10-12 hours of a highly stressful day because apparently it doesn't spread in schools, only hospitals and prisons

Have not RTFT but just wanted to comment here. If you have flu symptoms and are feeling that unwell then you absolutely need to take some time off. Covid or not, so the access to LFTs is irrelevant. That's what is meant by learning to live with it. Treat it like any other illness. If you're poorly stay at home if you're well go to work.

@Cornettoninja I’m seeing a disconnect between these statements…

No disconnect. PP is saying that if you are actively unwell and contagious you shouldn't visit. Not avoid visiting for months on end on the off chance you might be asymptomatic. I'm sorry to hear about your father but if anything you're proving the opposite point. He's had covid twice despite restrictions. The time he has left to see his family has been limited due to restrictions and it still didn't stop him catching it. Also, antivirals could still be offered to care home patients if they meet medical criteria, same as any other patients.

My understanding is that schools have been told even if they have spare LFTS they are now not allowed to use them, which just seems madness to me

@toomuchlaundry

My understanding is that schools have been told even if they have spare LFTS they are now not allowed to use them, which just seems madness to me

This isn't true, we have lots at ours and we are allowed to use them.