To think there is a bit of a disconnect on Mumsnet nowadays between posters' experience of being a parent and that of being a child!

[Comeoninandclosethedoor]

As someone who is coming to the end of my hands-on parenting days, and someone who has been on Mumsnet a lot over the years, I have noticed this of late.

It's not my intention to highlight or criticise any particular thread or poster and I admit to having had quite a few difficult years parenting teens myself, so I am certainly not claiming to be mother of the year myself, but this is something that seems to crop up a lot atm.

There are currently a lot of threads saying - understandably - how difficult, relentless, boring and frustrating it can be to be a mother sometimes (it is usually mothers posting) on one side of the boards, while at the same time, there are so many people (usually women) posting about how awful their parents are , particularly their mothers, on the other. How their mothers never cared enough, did enough, were too narcissistic, too selfish when they were DC, and how they don't help out enough with their GC now?

Disclaimer: Obviously I am not talking about neglectful or abusive mothers (and fathers) here who deserve every bit of negative criticism and condemnation they receive

But AIBU to suggest that we can try and join the dots a bit here? That mothers are often doing their best in very difficult circumstances, that many find parenting hard, and that parenting nowadays isn't easy, especially when so much is expected of women? That we could all cut one another some slack and be a bit more understanding of mothers, who are given a very hard time on here?

I couldn’t really compare this to my own experience of being a child, as my parents definitely came under things covered in your disclaimer.

I found it personally helpful when going through therapy to examine their side of things and what they might have been struggling with, meanwhile understanding that their struggles did not excuse their behaviour.

I think it’s the same for anybody though. We can try and understand our parents, all the while knowing that they were adults with the responsibility of raising us- and as parents we can struggle with things and do our best with the knowledge that if our children feel that we failed them, they aren’t obligated to forgive us.

Certainly something to think on.

YANBU at all. I've been on here donkeys but have only really realised in the past year or two how hard MN is on mothers. It's not a particularly supportive place for women who are struggling.

The problem is (and this happens with everything) is that we judge the past by todays standards.
Now obviously we can look at the past and realise that the way things were done were awful or unsafe, but we have the benefit of time and studies and the fact that society has moved on so like you said bar actual abuse and neglect a lot of things like leaving kids in car while you went to the shop or smoking in the house or letting kids go out to play out of sight for the day etc were just the way tings were back then. parenting advice changes, we no longer leave babies in prams outsite shops or the front door, that seems shocking now but years ago it was what everyone did. Years and years ago 11 year olds worked down the mines etc etc.

I think there's a difference between the trials and tribulations of parenting and people's personalities, that have negative impacts on their children.

For insurance, my MIL is controlling, argumentative and never praises my wife for anything she's done or achieved. But wants everything back in return. She's been like this since my wife was a child.

Unpleasant people are usually unpleasant irrespective of whether they have kids. My mum was similar.

All we can do is not to recycle the shitty personality traits and minimise the BS that gets passed down. I'm sure it'll never quite be enough but I want my kids to be able to talk about us in more positive terms than how we talk about our parents.

*instance, not insurance!

Sorry to hear you had that experience Mumoblue

I take on board that this is a contentious subject because it's so difficult to judge, in cases where abuse and neglect is not present, how various hardships and mh issues and an individual's own experience of being parented squares up against, or aligns with, personal responsibility.

I am reminded of that fantastic Oscar Wilde quote:

“Children begin by loving their parents; as they grow older they judge them; sometimes, they forgive them"

I personally think we could do with a bit more forgiveness floating around atm!

But I have only just reached that conclusion latterly, having parented teens myself.

I used to think my mother was far too over-bearing and difficult and my father was a generally much more sympathetic character. But now I am in my late fifties, I am much more aware of how difficult it is to parent teens, and I am more aware of feminist issues too, and hold a different view. I think my mother, more of less, did the best she could given the norms of the time (the sixties and seventies). She was human with failings like myself and everyone else!

And let's not forget that far more is expected of women and mothers nowadays than it was back then. I think expectations of women at home, in the workplace, at the gym, in the kitchen, as a parent, have risen to unrealistic levels.

I used to think my mother was always in a bad mood for no reason. Just a miserable person.

Now I totally get it. She had 5 children and very little help. I appreciate her a whole lot more since I had children.

Sorry mam

I feel that my opinion on my childhood has indeed changed a lot since I became a parent myself, but the other way around.

I used to think that my parents were doing their best in difficult circumstances, now I think they could and should have done better. I also hope to do better by my grandchildren, minus the unlimited free childcare that people seem to expect nowadays!

Yes BrieAndChilli that's an excellent point about judging past parenting by today's standards. So much more information is available to us now. I guess if we all keep improving from generation to generation things can only get better while understanding that most mothers did the best they could with the knowledge available at the time.

Sadly I agree JenniferBarkley that we mothers on here can be very hard on fellow mothers. Whether that is internalised misogyny or not, I don't know enough to say. But I think we could all cut one another a bit of slack. And happily there are many supportive threads too.

I think there's a difference between the trials and tribulations of parenting and people's personalities, that have negative impacts on their children

Can you really separate the two so clearly though Lunar27? Surely one can inform the other and vice versa? A terrible accident in childhood could cause someone to become very anxious as an adult for example. Just as an over-anxious parent could potentially cause harm to their DC by preventing them from participating in sports etc? (I am not discounting for a moment what you say about your mil btw. But wouldn't it also hold true that her personality was formed in some way by the circumstances of her upbringing and how she was parented?)

That's interesting Beautifuldragon and fair enough.

Looking back, I am in awe of my mother and how she managed to raise so many DC with so little help, and so few domestic appliances! I have a realistic view of her though, she had a quick temper and could have been far more understanding at times.

In other words my view of her is not couched in terms of "saint or sinner" which seems to be the received rhetoric about motherhood nowadays. It annoys me so much especially as men don't have to suffer this clap trap. Men are allowed to be just " normal" and "good enough".

That's a lovely post Poptart4

@Comeoninandclosethedoor.

That's an interesting question and understand your examples. I can only talk about my own experiences but my mum was incredibly violent. It was hugely important to me (for obvious reasons) that my kids never had to look at me with the kind of fear that I used to, irrespective of how naughty or difficult they were.

Fortunately my wife's attitude has been similar so was determined to eradicate the worst parts of her mum's behaviour and not pass it on.

I've no doubt we've imparted other parts of our personalities on them but hopefully none of the really damaging ones.

I'm not judging but IMO we only have one shot and from what I've seen/read it's always been more important to not pass on our personal anxieties etc. However I fully appreciate this happens and also how difficult it is not to.

I know what you mean op. There is one poster on here (not a well known one, but I've noticed him/her) and all he/she does is get outraged at other posters' parenting. It's like a sport for some people and it's shitty.

Again, clearly not talking about judging genuinely poor parenting, but these are all little things and this poster gets their knickers in a right twist and catastrophises every single time. Tiresome.

There is certainly an element "I traveled the world unaccompanied at 13" plus "I won't allow my kids to go to a shop until 18 because they might just step under a bus"

People just love to moan. Whether about motherhood, childhood, work, friends, neighbours, a pandemic, schools, teachers - some people just love to complain. Some people think they deserve more. Some people feel entitled to happiness.

It goes hand in hand with a near-total lack of self-awareness, which I also find (shoot me if you like) goes hand in hand with low intelligence. I don’t mean poor education. Intelligence.

Life in the UK has been relatively good for most people for a long time. That’s been changing for a few years and will likely continue to change more. Separately, and additionally, climate change and polarising wealth inequality are contributing to further stress. It all adds up.

It's the mother as saint, the Madonna, that keeps it afloat in our culture that a mother should fill you up with all the love, encouragement and confidence you need to thrive or else she's doing it wrong.
No mention of the paradox that mother's are nearly human and haven't got the superpower to pull this off without extensive support. It's the lack of support for mothers that causes problems. A lot of it on here, where mothers get shamed for not living up to a self-sacrificing standard.

Yup. True motherhood = complete self-sacrifice, apparently, from cradle to grave. And, that self-sacrifice is the only commonly accepted way to prove your maternal instincts and love for your children 🙄

I think part of it is that people by and large are trying to be supportive in their responses (unless op is obviously in the wrong), rather than to appraise the situation objectively or challenge what the op has said. So if you complain about how hard it is to be a mum, you receive sympathy, and if you complain about the failings of your own mum, you also receive sympathy- people aren’t trying to appraise the situation fairly, they’re trying to be supportive.

MN sometimes feels like the opposite of therapy. Whatever you say, you get it back plus 10%. So if you post, “my mum was horrible when I was a child, always miserable and complaining- she hated me” you get back, “she was abusive, have you considered going NC” rather than an invitation to consider what things might have been like for her. Which is right- people are posting for support, not to be quizzed by unqualified strangers- but we shouldn’t mistake support for confirmation.

YANBU. I don’t ever remember my mum ‘playing’ with me. She very caring and was pretty much a single mum (useless dad) plus I have one sibling but he’s 10 years older so I spent most of my time playing by myself.

Fast forward to now - I have a 5 year old and 18 month old. I can’t bear ‘playing’. Anything unstructured like pretending, doctors, mummy’s and daddy’s etc I find excruciating. Their dad isn’t like that at all and is loads of fun. Very much because my MIL is the same and loves playing with them, and always played with my husband. Everything is a learned behaviour for sure. I am doing my very best to push through it and break the cycle as don’t want my kids to feel like I don’t do anything with them 😞

I can’t bear ‘playing’. Anything unstructured like pretending, doctors, mummy’s and daddy’s etc I find excruciating

This is such a common one, I think- I really struggled with this and, even when I did my best, I always felt like I was just pretending (pretending at pretending, I mean).

Reminds me of this Esther Walker article which, IIRC, she got loads of criticism for but I loved.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/playing-with-my-daughter-is-so-boring-tm8kcslf7dm

YANBU.

Mumsnet is over 20 years old now. The"DC" of the early days are now becoming the mums of now. The same parenting issues still exist and people still have issues with their own parents and in laws. Only need to look at the zombie threads that pop up daily to see this.

While parenting styles definitely change, the overall parent-child relationship won't (not bad abuse of course as OP mentioned).

I don't know a single person (myself included) who doesn't have at least some issues or irritations in regards to their own parents/in laws - most people get along and are close regardless of this. It would be foolish to assume our own DC won't feel the same way in the future. They will be on here (or some futuristic equivalent) moaning about us!

I do agree completely that mums get it tougher on criticism. In my case, this is because my mum did almost all parenting so plenty to criticise. My dad, while around, left most of it up to my mum. Overall, my mum is great and I love her dearly but that doesn't mean she doesn't wind me up.

In my DPs case, he was raised by his mum with no contact with his dad. He looks back on things with criticism sometimes, but appreciates she was doing it alone. Mostly he admires her but she still gets on his nerves!

I think we are most critical of those we love as we expect a lot from them!

That's a very good point Obelisk and yes I think there's a lot of truth in that.

I suppose I was hoping for more self-awareness when people post about the failures of their own mothers (as givethatbabyaname mentions) but I suppose that is too much to hope for given that are all self-absorbed to a degree. But a bit more humility wouldn't go amiss!

And I agree that the image of mother as martyr and saint has put, and continues to put, a lot of unnecessary pressure on women.

I was watching an American crime programme the other day and the male cops were commenting about the mothers involved in the case saying a certain woman was a good or bad mother with such certainty and emphasis, while the others sat around nodding in agreement. That's a really trivial and silly example, but no mention was made of any fathers, and it's an example of how this black and white thinking, and the sense of entitlement with which people judge and comment, has pervaded every day life and is rarely challenged.

Yes that's a very balanced view NeverTheSameOneTwice and I had a very similar attitude to my parents when they were alive (and they had a similar division of labour) and my mother did irritate me a lot! .

That's a very wise insight about expecting the most from those we love!

And it is interesting to read posts from young mothers and the younger generation now that Mumsnet is coming of age!

This doesn't come from Mumsnet so much, but from current teen culture, that there seems to be a certain on-line rhetoric about everyone being a narcissist or a sociopath or in some way defective, without there being any corresponding encouragement towards self- examination! But maybe that's just me getting old!

I used to love playing with my infant DC Randomname85. I loved make believe and messy crafts and I was good at it! I felt quite smug at times that I had cracked parenting and was on top of it all. Then I got snookered fairly brutally by the teen years (although things are better now) and I got my comeuppance! . Very few escape parenting totally unscathed I think ...

This is so true for so much of mumsnet. The huge disconnect between related threads looking at opposite ends, e.g.:

• 'Narcissistic parent' vs 'I hate my teenager'
• 'Everyone has the audacity to ask me to put myself out in anyway is a CF' & 'an invite is not a summons' vs 'I have no friends' & 'everyone else is cliquey'
• 'Horrible woman SCREAMED at me for no reason' vs 'I cannot possibly be responsible for my behaviour because of mental health/hidden disability/etc'

Add infinitum. The most amusing to me is the simultaneous hating of all other people/social occasions/helping others and feeling that no one likes you without at any point possibly connecting the dots...

My opinion has changed in the same way as BeautifulDragon. When I was a child and a young adult I thought my parents did their best in difficult circumstances, but now I’m a parent myself I’m angry that they didn’t do better. We were poor but my mother smoked like a chimney, which must have cost a fortune. I just accepted it when she told me she couldn’t afford for me learn to play a musical instrument. But now it’s unthinkable to me that I would indulge an expensive smoking habit at the expense of my child being able to do extra curricular activities to enrich their lives. That’s just one example but there were several others too.