To think there is a bit of a disconnect on Mumsnet nowadays between posters' experience of being a parent and that of being a child!

[Comeoninandclosethedoor]

As someone who is coming to the end of my hands-on parenting days, and someone who has been on Mumsnet a lot over the years, I have noticed this of late.

It's not my intention to highlight or criticise any particular thread or poster and I admit to having had quite a few difficult years parenting teens myself, so I am certainly not claiming to be mother of the year myself, but this is something that seems to crop up a lot atm.

There are currently a lot of threads saying - understandably - how difficult, relentless, boring and frustrating it can be to be a mother sometimes (it is usually mothers posting) on one side of the boards, while at the same time, there are so many people (usually women) posting about how awful their parents are , particularly their mothers, on the other. How their mothers never cared enough, did enough, were too narcissistic, too selfish when they were DC, and how they don't help out enough with their GC now?

Disclaimer: Obviously I am not talking about neglectful or abusive mothers (and fathers) here who deserve every bit of negative criticism and condemnation they receive

But AIBU to suggest that we can try and join the dots a bit here? That mothers are often doing their best in very difficult circumstances, that many find parenting hard, and that parenting nowadays isn't easy, especially when so much is expected of women? That we could all cut one another some slack and be a bit more understanding of mothers, who are given a very hard time on here?

This is precisely why I find it so frustrating to post on here about my own experiences with my mother.

We don't have a relationship –for many reasons –and when I mention that, people seem to expect me to be angry with her or want to blame her.

I'm very clear that:

a) She did the very best she could, and
b) Her best was –and still is –awful for me to be around

But the cognitive dissonance that that elicits in many people is just too much. To be fair, it was for me, too, for a long while.

I'm not angry with her, I recognise everything she did and everything she tried to do, and everything she failed to do, AND I also recognise the impact it all had on me.

She was an incredible mother who loved me deeply, AND an abusive disaster who resented my very existence; an autonomous adult making her own choices AND the victim of her own abusive childhood blindly playing out her trauma, all at once.

And it's that both-andness that, I think, makes for some of the division you might be pointing to, OP –it's hard to know what to do when it's all true, both ends of the spectrum.

I don't have the answers, and it's a reasonable chunk of why I'm choosing not to have children –I know how destructive true maternal ambivalence can be, and I'm a major risk in that regard.

But just being aware of the messiness and complexity of it all is a big step, and I'm grateful to you for raising it here.

@Cirelle

My opinion has changed in the same way as BeautifulDragon. When I was a child and a young adult I thought my parents did their best in difficult circumstances, but now I’m a parent myself I’m angry that they didn’t do better. We were poor but my mother smoked like a chimney, which must have cost a fortune. I just accepted it when she told me she couldn’t afford for me learn to play a musical instrument. But now it’s unthinkable to me that I would indulge an expensive smoking habit at the expense of my child being able to do extra curricular activities to enrich their lives. That’s just one example but there were several others too.

But do you not think that assuming you are a mum to young children now your own may look back on things you do now that are currently completely normal and socially acceptable, e.g. spending your money on Starbucks/driving a car/eating meat that in say twenty years time will seem unbelievable that you didn't have the foresight to understand that this was selfish.

My mother did the best she knew how to do. She often got it wrong, but I wholeheartedly believe she wanted to be the best parent she could be.

I also agree that if people can do better, they do.

What I have noticed in the last few years is an incredible amount of pressure on mothers specifically, to be overflowing fonts of love and understanding, to be happy and strong and involved and patient, mothers being accused of causing trauma in their children.
In fact, in the last few months, I have noticed a huge increase in adults believing their parents have traumatised them.
I seem to notice the word 'trauma' everywhere, and it's usually the mothers who are blamed for this.

I read an article about gentle parenting where most of the comments on the article were adults blaming their parents for causing trauma to them, and amongst many comments, there was one that confused me.
It was a lady who described her mother as a gentle parent, understanding, patient, kind, tolerant, and yet, her now fully grown daughter claims she is traumatised by her childhood, because she felt her mother was neglectful as she was growing up because she didnt get angry or put strong robust boundaries in place, like her friends mothers did.
I found myself wondering what mothers are supposed to do?

It seems that sometimes, no matter how you parent, your children will believe you should have done it differently.

In turn, I think many of today's parents of young children will also find that many of their children grow into adults who are disappointed in their parenting, and yet, no one wants to accept that it will also happen to them, that they will also be condemned for their parenting choices, by their own children, until it does happen.

My parents were emotionally abusive/neglectful. I don’t think they were trying, I don’t enjoy being a parent but I know I’m trying. I know I will fuck up in some way with my DD. I think a lot of parents vent and then get back to the grindstone of trying to make their children happy and well adjusted human beings.

The kind of parents people usually complain about are actually abusive or neglectful even if it’s low level. I think children fundamentally want their parents love and approval (on the whole) and are often quite forgiving of their parents. Majority of posters complaining on mumsnet about their parents seem to have good cause. I don’t think I’ve seen many where the OP is just a giant whinger.

But do you not think that assuming you are a mum to young children now your own may look back on things you do now that are currently completely normal and socially acceptable, e.g. spending your money on Starbucks/driving a car/eating meat that in say twenty years time will seem unbelievable that you didn't have the foresight to understand that this was selfish.
No because I make sure my child is provided for first before I do anything for myself. My mother said I couldn’t learn to play the violin because she wanted to use that money to smoke cigarettes. She put herself ahead of her child. I don’t do that.

One of the most useful things I’ve ever read - I think it’s from Philippa Perry - is “if you were in their positing, you’d do the same thing”. So you don’t think you’d act like your mother did, but if you were her, with her life and experiences and knowledge, you would. We’re all the product of our lives and those lives affect us, and it’s easy to sit back years later or miles away and say “well, I wouldn’t do that…” but it’s not true! You would do that. You’d think the same and act the same because you would have lived the same way to that point.

“If you were in their position” that should read

In turn, I think many of today's parents of young children will also find that many of their children grow into adults who are disappointed in their parenting, and yet, no one wants to accept that it will also happen to them, that they will also be condemned for their parenting choices, by their own children, until it does happen.

I think this is bang on.

Some fascinating posts on here! Thank you to everyone who has responded and shared their insights. Unfortunately, I have to go to bed as I have a very early start tomorrow, but will catch up asap thereafter.

I absolutely agree, and have said this on here before. If you post saying that you lost it and screamed at your three year old you'll be told that you're human, that they won't remember, that you're still an amazing mum. If you say you remember your own mum screaming at you when you were three then you were abused and she was probably a narcissist that you should go NC with.

I also agree with the poster who says that a lot of people are going to be very surprised when their children find their own parenting wanting. I think there's a really dangerous streak - encouraged particularly by attachment parenting as a movement, but it's now also more widespread - of people thinking that we now 'get it right' with our children emotionally, unlike our own parents, and particularly that if you are martyrish enough when they're tiny that you'll be rewarded with perfectly emotionally healthy and flourishing adults. I think it's going to lead to both a lot of disappointed parents and, worse, a lot of parents who just won't believe that their children are normal, flawed human beings. I think 'you can't be depressed, we co-slept' will be the new 'but we took you to stately homes'.

@HardbackWriter Excellent post- I completely agree.

@Cirelle

But do you not think that assuming you are a mum to young children now your own may look back on things you do now that are currently completely normal and socially acceptable, e.g. spending your money on Starbucks/driving a car/eating meat that in say twenty years time will seem unbelievable that you didn't have the foresight to understand that this was selfish. No because I make sure my child is provided for first before I do anything for myself. My mother said I couldn’t learn to play the violin because she wanted to use that money to smoke cigarettes. She put herself ahead of her child. I don’t do that.

You are missing my point (and thus kind of making my point). You are judging both your own and your mum's parenting based on current acceptable norms and values. What I was suggesting by picking a few things that have the potential for attitudes and perceptions of acceptability to change massively over the next few days. To the point that your own kids may look back and think: 'I would NEVER do sth like that. Look how it has shaped my life/the world we live in! How did she not realise how utterly not ok this is! I would never do sth like that to MY kids'.... Just like your mum at the time probably thought she was doing her best for you and cigarettes perhaps not being the best investment likely not remotely crossing her mind. But she was not doing XY horrific thing her own mother didn't have the foresight to know was absolutely NOT ok'... ad infinitum

This Be The Verse
BY PHILIP LARKIN

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

———————————-

I don’t agree with the misery in the last verse, but you can’t deny the truth or logic 🤷‍♀️

We're just not biologically or psychologically built to cope with living in small family units. Children can be so annoying and demanding that this needs to be spread out more among a tribe. Being a mother in this situation can destroy you. It carries on down the generations, shame being one of the social weapons to keep us quiet and inline with unrealistic, harsh and isolating expectations.

@Toloveandtowork

We're just not biologically or psychologically built to cope with living in small family units. Children can be so annoying and demanding that this needs to be spread out more among a tribe. Being a mother in this situation can destroy you. It carries on down the generations, shame being one of the social weapons to keep us quiet and inline with unrealistic, harsh and isolating expectations.

But with mandatory schooling, and sometimes free nursery hours etc that is a lot of time children spend away from their parents. Realistically what else should society be doing to ease the load?

It's so difficult to generalise about this, because everyone is different, but your point doesn't chime with my experience. I'm 50 and had (still have!) nice, pretty well-balanced, good-natured parents. The dodgy/semi-neglectful stuff you hear aboit what parenting was like in the 70s and 80s didn't happen to me.

I don't think there's a huge difference in how I was parented compared with how I parent my dc (now teens). I haven't found parenting especially hard, and I don't think my parents did either. The one thing I could reproach them for is that they were smokers, but it was the norm then, and they did eventually give up.

I absolutely agree, and have said this on here before. If you post saying that you lost it and screamed at your three year old you'll be told that you're human, that they won't remember, that you're still an amazing mum. If you say you remember your own mum screaming at you when you were three then you were abused and she was probably a narcissist that you should go NC with.

But surely that has a lot to do with the perspective of being one step further removed from the person whose behaviour you're judging. You tend to be kind/lenient/understanding to the poster you're talking to. It's much easier and less confrontational to criticise a third party (e.g. the poster's mother) who you're not communicating with.

See also favourite child/golden child.

@HardbackWriter

I absolutely agree, and have said this on here before. If you post saying that you lost it and screamed at your three year old you'll be told that you're human, that they won't remember, that you're still an amazing mum. If you say you remember your own mum screaming at you when you were three then you were abused and she was probably a narcissist that you should go NC with.

I also agree with the poster who says that a lot of people are going to be very surprised when their children find their own parenting wanting. I think there's a really dangerous streak - encouraged particularly by attachment parenting as a movement, but it's now also more widespread - of people thinking that we now 'get it right' with our children emotionally, unlike our own parents, and particularly that if you are martyrish enough when they're tiny that you'll be rewarded with perfectly emotionally healthy and flourishing adults. I think it's going to lead to both a lot of disappointed parents and, worse, a lot of parents who just won't believe that their children are normal, flawed human beings. I think 'you can't be depressed, we co-slept' will be the new 'but we took you to stately homes'.

Sorry for delay in coming back to this!

V. Interesting post Hardbackwriter

I'm afraid I agree that there are going to be some disappointed parents out there in the future who currently feel they are doing it all right. Partly because it's nature's design that children often find fault with their parents, as a catalyst for launching themselves off in to the world. And partly because the very focused and hands on parenting prevalent ATM seems to have contributed in part to DC who are far more anxious than they used to be. But that's for a different thread!

givethatbabyaname a classic!

And I couldn't agree more about the unrealistic pressure on parents ATM, and it doesn't shock me at all that some DC are angry with their parents for not setting enough boundaries. I will probably be flamed for saying this but I saw some frankly dangerous parenting this weekend at an agricultural show caused by parents not being prepared to step in and deliver a firm "no".

Parents, of course, aren't always right by any means and I agree that this is a complex subject!

A bit of a trivial example but I confess to having experienced this with older teens and young adults myself who, when they were younger, were ferried about endlessly to extra-curricular activities but it took a lot of patience and many hours of cajoling, stress over lateness, general complaints and grumpiness to get them there week after week ( when in some cases they had begged me to to attend in the first place). And now they are older, some of them complain to me that I didn't make them carry on!

But that's more about personality responsibility I think which also ties in to this subject. We do live in a society I think where not enough people, both parents and young adults alike, do not take enough responsibility for their own actions, or lack of them!

Rinatinabina that's an interesting perspective. I tend to disagree that DC are very forgiving of their parents, but maybe that's because of the stage of parenting my friends and I are at ATM. Give it twenty years and things may be different! . And yes, good point about the venting!

I forgot to add that there seems to be an on-line ATM among teens and young adults which encourages them to be dissatisfied with many aspects of their life: their clothes and accommodation have to be Instagram-friendly, as do their fitness regimes and healthy diets - just "normal" and " good enough" isn't acceptable any more - and I think us parents are perhaps expected to live up to the same perfectionist standards too.

Just scroll through You tube topics that teens and young adults look at and you will see all of it:
-Is my parent a narcissist?

• Six signs your parent is a narcissist!
• Narcissism in a parent; the signs you need to know
• How to think about your narcissist parent!

And so on ...

I have no idea who is generating this type of content - people are making money out of it I assume - but when I was seventeen I was more interested in the psyches of my friends than of my parents.

Again, I am not talking about concrete abuse here and if a child was brought up by a true narcissist then they would have legitimate grounds for complaint.

I know that teens and young adults are understandably finding today's world hard to negotiate, especially post-pandemic, when they have had an utterly crap time, but there definitely seems to be a need to cast around and blame others, for what is perhaps mainly inner dissatisfaction?

The previous generations of parents weren't as kind to their children as we are now. They often saw them as not really human (speaking from experience w my own parents). Parents consider their children's feelings now don't they?

The previous generations of parents weren't as kind to their children as we are now. They often saw them as not really human (speaking from experience w my own parents). Parents consider their children's feelings now don't they?

I thought so when I was younger. But i grew to realize that back in the day parents had much more pressing matters than kids feelings. Also kids learned to cope with the world. Now it seems the opposite extreme - at any cost, do not upset the kids. And as a result, kids think life is not worth living over most insignificant things.

Now it seems the opposite extreme - at any cost, do not upset the kids

Hmm, we’ve just been through two years when the needs and well-being of children were completely disregarded, in a way they certainly never were for my generation, so I’m going to disagree with this very strongly.

Yeah maybe I mean that children always want their parents love and approval even while angry at them for something.

I think for children who are brought up by loving (if flawed) parents it’s often “safer” to moan at your parents than for children brought up in abusive ones. Children brought up in abusive homes often believe that there is something wrong with them not their parents until they get older. They may act out etc but always with fear. You see it again and agin, so many people seem to suffer from FOG. Those people invest a lot in placating horrible parents. Perhaps its a good thing if your kids aren’t as careful around you iyswim

Sorry I’m derailing, I know you said this wasn’t about abuse.

But yes I totally expect my DD will have a list of complaints when she’s older and I’m sure I’ll deserve some of them at the very least!

Since I’ve learned to realise I was judging my mums mental health troubles on todays standards I’ve learned to let it go. If she had the same problem today she would have received so much more help, and I know she sought help for it, and didn’t really receive much.

No you are not derailing Rinatinabina. That's a very informative point that DC in abusive homes tend to blame themselves rather than their parents.