Stop implying it's not so bad now because you grew up with no central heating and scraped ice off the windows.

[flashbac]

FFS

I also had no central heating in the house as a kid. There was a hole under the bathtub that cats would use to come in while you were freezing arse off on the loo. It was bloody grim. I don't wish it on anybody. People shouldn't have to be uncomfortable in their own bleeding homes for goodness sakes. It shouldn't be happening in this day and age. Stop defending it.

@ClaudineClare

I pointed out that if he got a new, cheaper phone contract and looked at how much he was spending on Sky he probably could. For example a single month without Sky would buy him a slow cooker and a fair few hats, gloves, scarves. If he went to charity shops he would find all sorts of blankets etc. If he did without even half of the Sky and phone packages he had he could stock up over summer, buying winter stuff in the coming sales

People should not have to cut out small luxuries like Sky to be able to heat their home or keep warm. Also, you often cannot just cancel contracts without having to pay financial penalties. Then there is the wider picture. If people cut down spending or stop spending on non-essential goods and services, the economy will tank, unemployment will rise etc,etc, etc

Again, the UK is a rich country. The government needs to be helping people on low or modest incomes much more.

That's what I mean! "small luxuries" that cost thousands of pounds a year.

Starting now, to make the changes affordable and in time - looking ahead to the next end of contract phase etc.

As for the economy, there will always be a balance between the cost of living and the consumerist society. If there needs to be a rebalance then everyone is going to take a hit, there is no protection via Sky's continued profits etc.

That seems to be a sticking point for some. Actually believing that the world, not just the UK, the world is heading for a recession. Covid alone ensured that. The current political climate, Russia etc, only compounds that. No amount of getting angry, railing about it, defending "small luxuries" will change that. The era of conspicuous consumerism couldn't carry on forever.

Just hope that the property market doesn't crash any time in the next couple of years, though I suspect it will. That will make the current fuel feel like a warm up session (pun not intended).

Get political, it needs to be done. But also stop railing against the need for each individual to take those small, often inconvenient, steps for self preservation!

You seem to be overlooking the global financial crisis of the later 00s which ended the more affluent years

The Tories deliberately chose to react to the global financial crisis with a policy of austerity, a.k.a make the less well off poorer. Many now think that was a mistake.

www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2020/05/top-economists-warn-uk-not-repeat-austerity-after-covid-19-crisis

I grew up in a house with a three bar electric fire, a little heating ring on the bathroom light, single glazing, no heating upstairs. Immersion heater went on once a week for Sunday bath night!

It was grim, chilblains and bad chest during the winter months were commonplace.

I don’t want or expect anyone else to have to live that way now. I don’t expect a medal for surviving it and would never reply to someone struggling right now with the smug ‘well we survived worse’ - makes me angry when I see this!

Think my parents had central heating installed in around 1990! The bloody difference it made! I really don’t want to go back to the way I felt in the 70’s, it’s not right and we shouldn’t have to!

I would suggest that if you are working for a charity and trying to communicate how someone could make changes and 'they turn their back on you", then maybe you could do with some training on communication skills

We did discuss this afterwards. My colleagues were as surprised, and disappointed, as I was. But mostly we were worried. His job is to share all sorts of information with clients, to support them through making such tough decisions. To cut their cloth etc. It isn't me, in this instance, who needs to wake up to themselves, to think things through more carefully. Next week he will be having a 1-2-1 with his line manager to discuss his reaction. She will start with an offer of help if he is in financial difficulty.

That's the job we do. Sometimes being nice and polite, avoiding unpleasant and uncomfortable conversations is not possible.

@RancidOldHag

I suggest the government takes action

What actions do you recommend?

(Just 'do something' sounds to me a bit like 'wave a magic wand')

A windfall tax on the energy companies might be a useful starting point.

Genuinely asking so what can be done?? Millions of people are going/are struggling how can we make the gov and the big companies take responsibility when everyone will continue to pay the bills some how? The government doesn't listen!

Get political, it needs to be done. But also stop railing against the need for each individual to take those small, often inconvenient, steps for self preservation!

I am politically active, have been all my life. That is why in my post I urged people to get out and vote in May. The elections may "only" be local, but the electorate can send a message if it gets out there and votes out as many local Toroes as possible.

@BulletTrain

Oh, god. The phones, the phones, the bloody phones. Do you know how much my contract (not "the latest iPhone", puke) would cost to end? £690, because most are now 3 years as standard. And I'd still need to either PAYG or get a sim-only deal after that. And yes, I do need a phone, because my internet has no landline service.

I run my business from mine, I know how vital they are.

But I don't have that kind of contract. I avoided them because of the lock in costs. I have an older model phone, bought outright after having saved % business profits for it. And I have a Mates Rates deal with my internet provider. So it costs less than £10/month.

But I don't use it for streaming etc. It's a phone, camera and dictaphone as far as I am concerned.

Oh, and how I Mumsnet, of course ☺️

Torioes? Tories.

would suggest it's more of a case that the advice given doesn't fit the entitled way of life some people think they should have.

You dont get it Internet is a necessity these days mobile phones are necessity you cannot access your benefits without those they will sanction you for everything when I was with my ex they threatened him with a sanction because his car broke down and he couldn't afford to fix it this was him "deliberately obstructing" himself getting back into work so he bought another old banger and we went cold for awhile again they were happy then his phone broke again they kicked off he needed his phone we get that but the response was outrage you cannot fix or replace your phone immediately? We will remove money from you until you do as its part of your "work commitments"

And that's just some of what you go through to get "free money"

@RancidOldHag

I suggest the government takes action

What actions do you recommend?

(Just 'do something' sounds to me a bit like 'wave a magic wand')

We could look at how the Government gets money and redistributes it.

Are there ways people get money that is not taxed effectively? Do we rely too much on the income tax system whereas there could be other ways of getting more money?

Are we spending our money effectively?

So we drew on our experiences as a kid, memories of how grandparents managed large families on little money in draughty houses. Practical ideas on how to cope with the cold and little money for heating.

I lived in those times and with those solutions. Some of those practical ideas resulted in outcomes such as chronic bronchitis, asthma, chilblains, poor health, undermined immune systems, chronic malnutrition etc. The lack of decent footwear meant children acquired foot problems that have plagued them through life.

On top of that, our ideas of personal cleanliness changed for the better including toothbrushing.

Some solutions are universal but the others set people up for lifelong problems.

@ClaudineClare

Get political, it needs to be done. But also stop railing against the need for each individual to take those small, often inconvenient, steps for self preservation!

I am politically active, have been all my life. That is why in my post I urged people to get out and vote in May. The elections may "only" be local, but the electorate can send a message if it gets out there and votes out as many local Toroes as possible.

Then we are only disagreeing on details, possibly!?

So we take what works in today's world @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus and discard the stuff that doesn't work. I don't think anyone nowadays would suggest dousing a child with laudanum, or the alcohol water from a fomented swede, to help with toothache. But layering leaky or thin soled shoes with cardboard and paper, pasted in with glue to waterproof it, is something that can be useful in a pinch.

The starting point, for some, is being willing to make any changes at all.

@ClaudineClare

Get political, it needs to be done. But also stop railing against the need for each individual to take those small, often inconvenient, steps for self preservation!

I am politically active, have been all my life. That is why in my post I urged people to get out and vote in May. The elections may "only" be local, but the electorate can send a message if it gets out there and votes out as many local Toroes as possible.

No elections in May where I live in south west England.

@blinkler

The problem I see is the older generation who never put heating on growing up are now literally freezing to death because they can't afford to put their heating on. When they should be old and comfortable

It is health as well, young or old people with some conditions just do need more heat and they might also need more washing. It is OK people saying 14 is ok or 18 is ok. My husband is disabled, he lives in constant pain and if I turn the heating below 20 his pain in unbearable.

I'm trying to economise on everything electrical that I can as heating the house is not something he should have to compromise on.

Actually it isn't just health when I think about it. People with young children need heating, a baby won't be safe in a freezing cold house and they also create lots of washing.

Oh I was one of the posters saying this but because I was saying it doesn't actually mean I'm defending what's happening now

I just meant, we survived it was normal back then, less double glazing etc.

I love my house it's far more modest than the line I grew up in but it's comfortable!

If civil unrest occurs to put pressure on the government or energy companies then good on them.

Something has to happen.

ancientgran elections may not cover the whole of England but according to the Guardian this is what is up for grabs:

33 metropolitan borough councils, covering 904 seats; 21 unitary authorities, with 627 seats; 60 district councils (1,011 seats); 32 London boroughs (1,817 seats); plus mayors in six London local authorities, and a South Yorkshire combined authority mayor
rest of UK:

In Scotland, there are 1,219 seats up for grabs in 32 councils, while for Wales it is 1,234 seats in 22 councils. Northern Ireland will vote for the 90 members of its devolved assembly

So quite a good opportunity to send a message!

@SamphiretheStickerist

So we take what works in today's world *@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus* and discard the stuff that doesn't work. I don't think anyone nowadays would suggest dousing a child with laudanum, or the alcohol water from a fomented swede, to help with toothache. But layering leaky or thin soled shoes with cardboard and paper, pasted in with glue to waterproof it, is something that can be useful in a pinch.

The starting point, for some, is being willing to make any changes at all.

As somebody who actually had to put cardboard in shoes as a child (my own and my siblings') it wasn't "in a pinch" it was the only way to have shoes on our feet at all. This wasn't a temporary fix for us.

It's solutions like that that give me my insight into the long-term harms of shoes that don't fit, are handed down, and aren't merely leaky but have holes almost across the entire sole.

The starting point, for some, is being willing to make any changes at all.

There will always be people who don't care for their children and will neglect them. And there are people who are overwhelmed by their own mental health problems or those of people for whom they care or have tragic events that break them for a while. But, I don't understand this attitude that everyone else who is experiencing problems must be feckless, spendthrift, and unwilling to change at all.

Decent solutions need to be scalable and not outsourced to individuals. Most people can endure something for a while but, as per other threads, if something is somebody's constant reality, then this is a different matter, and needs appropropriate solutions.

@ClaudineClare

Get political, it needs to be done. But also stop railing against the need for each individual to take those small, often inconvenient, steps for self preservation!

I am politically active, have been all my life. That is why in my post I urged people to get out and vote in May. The elections may "only" be local, but the electorate can send a message if it gets out there and votes out as many local Toroes as possible.

Just depends on where you live. Where I am the conservative councillor is the only one of our three (in our area) who actively gets involved with local issues. The others only when it suits them for photo ops. It's the only time I vote conservative, for that particular councillor as to do otherwise would be to cut my nose off to spite my face.

I'm in Scotland and couldn't bring myself to vote snp even as a tactical vote. It's becoming harder and harder to be able to choose who to vote for.

We coped then. We'll cope now.

I disagree. The welfare state was bigger back then - the NHS was functioning not on its knees. We hadn't just come out of a massive pandemic. We had a decent social housing stock and people didn't have to rely on private landlords as much. Levels of social mobility were higher in the 70's, people genuinely had a better chance of dragging themselves out of poverty.

flashbac, I wish you would come on to a facebook group which I joined - Memories of the 1950s.; I'm not saying you were around then but your opening post, describing your bathroom, sounds very 1950s. I was a child in the '50s. It's usually a really nice group, people talk about music, films, fashion, etc. However I put my foot in it.

There was a picture of three young actresses whom I didn't recognise but that is irrelevant. Posters were saying things like, 'Those were the days, people were so elegant, etc', which was fair enough. I said that back then many didn't bathe or wash their hair very often, things are better now.

My remark unleashed untold fury from people who took it personally - as if I'd said they didn't bathe or they smelled. They all told me they had always bathed or showered every day and washed their hair, etc, also that they were glad they hadn't been around me. One even said they doubted I was a decent person.

It was quite funny in way, I tried to explain what I meant and that I wasn't being personal but of course nobody, or hardly anyone, read my subsequent posts, they just latched on to my first one (which of course I regret but still cannot see how I've said anything wrong).

A lot of posters in that group are American and we know they had a higher standard of living post war whereas here in the UK, in my case London, what I described was not at all uncommon. People did their best but there was a housing crisis, many were in overcrowded accommodation, sharing a loo, without a bathroom, and had larger families. It didn't affect me as a child; my home, though modest, was nice but I was aware even then of how it was for others. Both my parents came from poor families, especially my mum who was one of ten children, living in a very small house with an outside loo. Gran had a very hard life. By comparison, we were well off!

I hope you get my drift, I don't want to start another online war :-). Please everyone feel free to ignore, I won't be offended.

Decent solutions need to be scalable and not outsourced to individuals

Whilst I spend much of my working life in one or two of those 'outsourced solutions' I cannot agree with the ever increasing absolution of individuals.

Yes, there will always be shite parents, I too spent much of my youth in cobbled together clothing and leaky shoes. That's how I know how I'm going to make my current pair of winter boots last yet another year. But part of the perceived problems right now (as opposed to the very real ones) is an expectation that someone, the government can and will solve a problem. Few consider where the money for such intervention comes from etc. or that they can take small, often uncomfortable, steps to help themselves.

I see perfectly capable adults every week who have, for a wide variety of reasons, run out of 'cope'. Some have never had to dig quite so deep before, some have been doing it for far too long. But they ALL find ways to take control of whatever it is that is drowning them. They have to or it just continues. Some take years before they manage. Some only manage with continued input from external services. But, in absence of any compounding factors, the one thing all our services insist upon is that we are not a Nanny Service. We can't take control of anything.

I suspect I am talking at cross purposes with some posters here. And that I slide into the sanctimonious. But it is hard to explain what I see, what I deal with, every week without justifying someone's prejudice or annoying someone. Yes. I work with well meaning, well off people whose lives have no connection with the client base. But other workers and volunteers do so because they have experienced the crap the clients are currently dealing with. Some are still dealing with it themselves and are probably the most courageous people I've ever met.

We all know one thing. Making a difference starts with listening to the hardest of advice.

I warned you I could get sanctimonious!. Sorry.

I completely agree OP. I’m sixty and I grew up with ice inside the windows, one coal fire in the living room and no other form of heating anywhere in the house. We threw coats on top of the beds to try to get warm. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy. It was awful and people shouldn’t have to live like that in this day and age, we all deserve to be comfortable in our own homes. It’s a basic necessity.