people who say the NHS is free?

[Sallygoround631]

It isn't free. This is truly absurd. It is funded by us, and always has been.

I see this so often on MN, and in all seriousness too, as if it is a free gift the government give to us.
I've read more than one poster suggesting we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic if the MHS wan't 'free', and that the US healthcare system would benefit us!
WTAF?
Because the US has never had an obesity issue....

How can anyone of adult age in the uk think the NHS costs us nothing?
Christ, and you wonder why the government takes the piss.

I was probably ahead on the deal by the time I was 7 days old (induction, IUGR, resus, Special Care for a fortnight).

At a rough estimate, apart from having TB aged 5 and then diagnosed with autoimmune and connective tissue diseases, I could and would have died at least five times were it not for the NHS being free at the point of delivery.

I've also been utterly uninsurable since childhood because of that. Just as well it's free, as I wouldn't be here otherwise.

The USA system is an embarrassment to it's people - if anything we should be looking towards OZ or France for examples of good care, with excellent outcomes,affordable to all. Not to the USA which is way down on the WHO scale of good healthcare and seems focussed on making 30 year old doctors millionaires.

I am.a single mum working part time and getting topped up by Universal Credit. Every penny of my divorce settlement, when it arrives, will be going on private treatment for my chronic progressive disease. The NHS only has one consultant in the entire UK that offers the surgery I need and my local CCG have refused funding 3 times. This disease is covered by insurance in the US, and Ireland, and by the state Healthcare systems in a lot of countries, Germany is world leading. That money should be going on a deposit for a house for me and my children but instead I'm having to spend it on keeping myself out of a wheelchair, and not becoming disabled like my mum. Tell me again how amazing the NHS is?

@TheSnootiestFox

I am.a single mum working part time and getting topped up by Universal Credit. Every penny of my divorce settlement, when it arrives, will be going on private treatment for my chronic progressive disease. The NHS only has one consultant in the entire UK that offers the surgery I need and my local CCG have refused funding 3 times. This disease is covered by insurance in the US, and Ireland, and by the state Healthcare systems in a lot of countries, Germany is world leading. That money should be going on a deposit for a house for me and my children but instead I'm having to spend it on keeping myself out of a wheelchair, and not becoming disabled like my mum. Tell me again how amazing the NHS is?

Very sorry to hear this Fox. Hope you get the treatment you need abroad. I completely understand how frustrating this is, the NHS nearly killed me by struggling to diagnose a very serious chronic illness, life threatening. The only way I got treatment was hours of research & begging a locum to send me for these tests. My GP had decided everything was in my head & not real

@Thinking2041

I know. It’s ridiculous! Is there a figure out there to tell us what we pay on average to the NHS a year?

It's about £800 a year each. Bloody terrific value.

Yes I pay NI and taxes and have done for 25 years.... However there is no way I have paid in the 300000 worth of care o have received. To me it has been almost free and life saving .

If I'd had to pay for that I'd be dead.
Insurance likely wouldn't have covered most of it or co payments would be extortionate.

Depends how you view it. Collectively as a country, no it's not free and yes we pay but a lot of people benefit from it far more tha. They will ever pay in.

I am grateful

@Backofthenet20 thank you I'm just sick to death of hearing how amazing the bloody NHS is and how we should all be grateful, when my personal experience of nearly 50 years is that it's a Shower of Shite that I have to fund through taxation and then fund my own healthcare on top!

[quote Backofthenet20]@Ozanj the costs are for my healthcare. Based on payment of 40% tax plus 20% VAT in the UK I am sure I pay less in the US because my effective tax rate is so much less, about 19%. My Dad unfortunately lives in the UK and does not have private insurance. The NHS has let him down badly & left him in pain. There are many other systems doing better than the NHS, Canada gas socialized healthcare too & they have much better performance than the NHS with roughly equivalent funding.[/quote]
You don’t pay 40% for the NHS. It’s NI that goes towards it so 20%. In Canada my aunt recently paid 20k dollars for a knee replacement.

@ToothGrinder

Yes it's free and they're all heroes and we should all be grateful we're not dead.

Yes. The problem is that the mentality of many staff (not generally the clinical staff) is that it's free so you should suck up any problems. No, it's not free, it is funded by the taxpayer.

@yellowsuninthesky as an NHS employee I can assure you that this is NOT our mentality. We are heartbroken at the state the NHS is in and implore you to protest about it and scream about it from the rooftops. What we don't appreciate is any suggestion that privatisation is the solution to this. It's not. We've put up with overworking to pretty much breaking point whilst tolerating not just contempt but abuse on so many levels from the public and the government and media (and don't even get me started on the nausiating clapping) Why do we tolerate this? Because we know how literally catastrophic it would be for a good proportion of the public if the NHS did collapse. You honestly have so much to lose if it goes private. It breaks my heart to see that people are so apathetic and brainwashed by the tory narrative that they don't see this

@TheSnootiestFox

I am.a single mum working part time and getting topped up by Universal Credit. Every penny of my divorce settlement, when it arrives, will be going on private treatment for my chronic progressive disease. The NHS only has one consultant in the entire UK that offers the surgery I need and my local CCG have refused funding 3 times. This disease is covered by insurance in the US, and Ireland, and by the state Healthcare systems in a lot of countries, Germany is world leading. That money should be going on a deposit for a house for me and my children but instead I'm having to spend it on keeping myself out of a wheelchair, and not becoming disabled like my mum. Tell me again how amazing the NHS is?

If you were in the US and your husband's health insurance covered you, you would have lost that cover the instant he left. And you'd then be unable to take out insurance for yourself because you'd have a pre existing illness. If you weren't refused cover from the outset because you had a family history of the disease. Your children are also likely to be uninsurable in the US thanks to your diagnosis. Which means no cover for any medical treatment at all.

That's how amazing the NHS is. You're getting everything else.

[quote Tynetime]@Mellowyellow222 I don't actually think many people get paracetamol on prescription. FFS my dh was told by a GPto go any buy cocodomol when he was in bad pain. The pharmacist could sell more than a few days worth and told us to contact our GP.
I have a long term vile skin condition and so I have to buy my own moisturiser, Barrier cream and soap substitute.[/quote]
And that's one of the problems I was prescribed co-codmole by my GP for pain and then was told as its an over the counter medication I have to buy it my self, I have no problem with this of course I don't only no-one now is monitoring my usage, of course I can monitor it myself but others may not be able to it can cause addiction in some and possible liver damage as well, but I can buy as much as i like in any pharmacy without checks, an addict would just go from pharmacy to another and lie - I think that's very dangerous to be honest all for cost saving

Neverdropyourmooncup. You are not up to date with US healthcare. It is illegal to drop or exclude people with pre existing conditions, so both Fox and children would be covered. This was introduced through Obamacare. Fox doesn’t have to have insurance through their husband, I have my own. If a person has coverage dropped they can go to the market place or use COBRA which allows you to keep your previous insurance & pay the premiums.

I think you were missing the point about tax. In the UK all taxes from every source is pooled together & of those for fiscal year 2021, a budget of 792 billion, they borrowed 323billion (the deficit, like living in your credit card) & expenditure on the NHS was 219.4 billion or 21.9% of the countries overall budget. When I lived in the UK, I paid tax at 40%. Essentially effective tax rate on 100k is 34k or 34%, in the US mine works out at 19k or 19% , so even though I don’t get “free healthcare”, I have $15K per 100000 extra to buy my healthcare needs. Those who do not have good insurance can be very expensive if an emergency happens, but my out of pocket maximum is $9000 so I am not responsible to pay any more than this irrespective of the amount spent . I be also save towards any medical expenses each each with a before tax account. Whilst those under or not insured can have an awful time, there are huge advantages. I dr shop, choose who I want to see & when. I get fast treatment. I had bursitis in my hip, went to see my primary GP on a Saturday , had an X-ray there & got an injection within an hour. Copay was $40. My MIL needed the same on the NHS & it took 19 weeks to be seen

Am I right @Backofthenet20 that there isn’t the same paternalistic approach in the us?

I have a friend who had a baby in the stars then one at home here in the UK.

She was shocked at how she was spoke to o by midwives - patronised and treated like a child. She said this would never have happened in the states - yes you are a paying customer there, but you are treated like an adult who has agency to make your own decisions - for example about breast feeding. The medics give you the information- but there isn’t the same judgement and pressure.

Don’t get me wrong 1 the majority of health professionals in the nhs are excellent - but some very old fashioned attitudes have been allowed to continue. When my sister had my niece I really though I had wondered into an episode of call the midwife! A girl in her early twenties was call my 35 year old sister ‘mummy’ and telling her to take a year off work to breastfeed😂. I wish I had a camera to capture the expression on my barrister sister’s face😂😂.

@Mellowyellow222 you have hit the nail on the head. Although I only had a baby in the UK , if I think about the treatment of my chronic /rare conditions in the UK vs US it was a very different approach. In the UK, this is my treatment recommendation & you will follow as I suggest from the consultant( Dr knows best). Here in the US ( and I have lived in 4 states) each doctor has said, you know how you feel best, let’s optimize your treatment & you are the decision maker on which drug regime works best for you. TBH it has made a huge difference to my quality of life.

If you take into account the number of people who end up paying twice for healthcare in the UK for essential treatment/surgery by going privately because the NHS won't relieve their pain, it has to be the most expensive healthcare system in Europe. For end users.

@SucculentChalice

If you take into account the number of people who end up paying twice for healthcare in the UK for essential treatment/surgery by going privately because the NHS won't relieve their pain, it has to be the most expensive healthcare system in Europe. For end users.

How many would that be?

I had bursitis in my hip, went to see my primary GP on a Saturday , had an X-ray there & got an injection within an hour. Copay was $40. My MIL needed the same on the NHS & it took 19 weeks to be seen

And I called my rheumatology nurse, got an appointment the following morning, a steroid injection within 15 minutes, a referral to physio for the following evening and by the next Monday, was in Foot Health taking moulds for custom orthotics which I also didn't have to pay for. The GP also does steroid injections upstairs, but they couldn't fit me in until the Thursday afternoon. Cost me about a fiver to catch the train, no other charges.

Not to mention the 24 Biologics injections I have a year that are charged to the NHS at £610 each, but are far, far dearer where the profit motive comes into play. My multiple sites of bursitis and tendinosis were already diagnosed through a combination of ultrasound and MRIs, though. Those appointments were a bit slower due to covid - five days to book me in for a 7.30pm and an 11am Sunday morning because I was working on the Saturday and didn't fancy doing it after that.

My anecdata is as valid as yours.

Echt How many would that be?

Strangely, I am unable on command to provide free data to you, however since neither the NHS nor the UK Government provides it easily, it would require an FOI request to each healthcare trust in the country. Don't let me hold you back...

Anecdotally and speaking from personal experience, I know more than 10, 2 of whom paid to get hip replacements privately because they were in agony. My DP currently can't get medical attention for an injury to his wrist (previous surgery left metal plate in which is causing a tendon to fray) which has made him lose the use of his thumb and fingers and so paid to go private last month. He needs nerve conduction tests before he loses more function, can't get these done on the NHS either, so will be paying £1000 for those. Then he will probably need surgery. The local healthcare trust sent him to physio, who did absolutely nothing at all. Didn't even refer to him. His GP seemed angry at being asked to do something about it. He isn't even on a waiting list to be on a waiting list. Its likely that the delay will cause him to lose that tendon with no certainty as to whether it can ever be fixed.

He is a higher rate taxpayer. Not that that should matter. But he does pay enough to ensure that he isn't left without the use of his hand.

@SucculentChalice

Echt How many would that be?

Strangely, I am unable on command to provide free data to you, however since neither the NHS nor the UK Government provides it easily, it would require an FOI request to each healthcare trust in the country. Don't let me hold you back...

Anecdotally and speaking from personal experience, I know more than 10, 2 of whom paid to get hip replacements privately because they were in agony. My DP currently can't get medical attention for an injury to his wrist (previous surgery left metal plate in which is causing a tendon to fray) which has made him lose the use of his thumb and fingers and so paid to go private last month. He needs nerve conduction tests before he loses more function, can't get these done on the NHS either, so will be paying £1000 for those. Then he will probably need surgery. The local healthcare trust sent him to physio, who did absolutely nothing at all. Didn't even refer to him. His GP seemed angry at being asked to do something about it. He isn't even on a waiting list to be on a waiting list. Its likely that the delay will cause him to lose that tendon with no certainty as to whether it can ever be fixed.

He is a higher rate taxpayer. Not that that should matter. But he does pay enough to ensure that he isn't left without the use of his hand.

If you can't base your sweeping statement about the number of people paying twice, on some evidence, of course I'll ask.

And your anecdata adds up to precisely 11 people. Not representative of much at all.

Hardly. I'd have my own insurance as up until I had to work part time I was the higher earner, my mum hasn't received a diagnosis apart from by me as the NHS are so clueless as to what they're looking at, and as for my children, my disease only affects females and I have two boys. So no, we'd be good thanks!

Again the NHS is not perfect and is underresourced but it makes me really upset to see how clueless some are about the implications of private healthcare especially given that it would be basically comissioned by the current government who gives zero f*&ks about any of us. The 'I'm alright Jack' attittude is great until you're not the one that's alright... please remember that...

@echt

Glad to hear your treatment was so fast, getting an MRI in 5 days is very unusual. Only 65% of those with cancer referrals are been seen within 2 months according to the BMA (British medical association)

Not sure if there is a register of those who went private due to waiting times, but currently 6 million people waiting for procedures & the BMA also states GP referrals are been turned down so the number is higher

A very sad statistic for those who are waiting

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/nhs-backlog-data-analysis

@SucculentChalice very sorry to hear of the difficulties for your husband, must be very concerning

Hope they can fix it before he loses range of motion