Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do people keep dangerous dogs???

490 replies

Ori18 · 31/03/2022 10:23

Another little boy pronounced dead this morning on the news - the toddler who was mauled on Monday and subsequently suffered a cardiac arrest. The dogs in question are not thought to be banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act - but I'd be interested to know which breeds they were as it's quite evident that certain breeds are more dangerous to children than others - why aren't Rottweiler's on the banned list for example?

And even though Pitt Bull Terriers are banned, people still go out of their way to own them, and are then shocked when they attack small children, maul babies, tear limbs off people. It makes me so angry. Same goes for German Shepherds and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. The Bull Terrier dogs are/were specifically bred for fighting - why would you even consider having one of these types of dogs around a baby or a small child? What is going on there? Is it lack of intelligence? Lack of education? Lack of giving a fuck? Because I think there need to be more dogs on the banned list, and heavier penalties served to people who insist on breaking the law to keep these dogs.

Aggressive/dangerous dogs and babies/small children do not mix, should never be mixed and it shouldn't take more deaths for the law to change around this. AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
whatisthisinhere · 01/04/2022 08:04

@WiddlinDiddlin

There is another myth that really needs to die, unfortunately it isn't popular, dispelling this myth.

'There are no bad dogs/dogs are never born bad'.. etc.

Well.. yes, actually, many dogs are born 'bad', if by 'bad' we mean genetically predisposed to be fearful, to be anxious, to be more inclined to choose aggression when they feel threatened, to be more inclined to choose biting when they feel threatened...

There is a pervasive and horribly inaccurate idea that a puppy is a 'blank slate', and that being so, if you raise any puppy the right way, they will therefore turn out to be a wonderful, happy, well balanced dog.

That isn't true.

It cannot be true, because we now know that learned experience CAN be passed on genetically.

Fear (check out the mice and the cherry scent study, as its half 4 in the morning I can't be arsed to find it) learned by just ONE parent* can be passed to the offspring even when the offspring NEVER experiences the aversive stimuli.

So lets say Joe Toughs Pitbull learns to be terrified of the smell of baby powder - he's bred to Bob Arseholes pitbull who is genetically predisposed to want to use aggression first rather than last when scared.

The offspring all stand a chance of a/being scared of the smell of baby powder and b/being predisposed to use aggression first. But you wouldn't know which until much later on down the line.

No amount of training is going to alter that, you could raise that puppy with the absolute best of everything and still not ever guarantee that puppy won't react fearfully in that specific situation. If you're a sensible owner, the risks are minimal... but you could end up with a dog you have to manage super carefully it's entire life.

This is a wholly unpopular view with rescues of course because many of them raise puppies in less than ideal situations, from bitches and dogs who are unknown quantities and have (bitches at least) likely suffered some extreme stress during the pregnancy.

Its also typically a totally unknown thing as far as breeders of many dogs are concerned - neither old school showing breeders nor backyard arseholes tend to go to lectures on epigenetics.

So yes, unfortunately some dogs can even with the best intentions of breeder and buyer, and the best care and training - be born predisposed to be fearful.

If you combine that with poor training, use of aversives, bullshit like pack theory/rank reduction/dominance theory/poor housing, poor handling, lack of socialisation and enrichment... You easily end up with dogs who appear (the signs are generally there, but the people closest to the dog are neither looking for them nor likely to recognise them) to suddenly do something violent without warning.

We could seriously reduce the risks of this if no one bred from dogs with iffy temperaments, ensured bitches never experienced stress during pregnancy and raising a litter, ensured all dogs had the very best care... but I won't hold my breath for that!

(*study used males because theres a chance offspring can learn from the mother in the litter, but theres no reason to suggest they can't also get a fearful gene from the mother)

Yes, absolutely this. My puppy is from n excellent breeder, the dam was well cared for and from championship lines, and the sire comes from championship lines also. My puppy is biddable, responsive, and loves to please. I've had two rescues in the past, and while they were lovely, they were definitely not to be trusted at all around children or small animals. Breeding makes a huge difference
blubberball · 01/04/2022 08:23

My son's secondary school has a rottweiler as a therapy dog. It's as sweet and soppy as anything

EerieSilence · 01/04/2022 08:25

I have a Dobermann and she loves small children. Gets agitated when she hears them cry because she thinks something bad is happening to them, gives sloppy kisses.
I would never leave her unattended around children though, because she's a big and powerful dog and could knock them down or nip them in a play.
There's no dangerous breeds, there's only dangerous owners. Sadly, many skanks love to hang around with bull-breeds because of the image (and relatively little activity and training demands).

oblada · 01/04/2022 08:30

People are dangerous. Not dogs.
I'm on a parenting group and every other week someone is asking how to STOP their little one from hurting/hitting/bothering the dog. It's maddening. It's pretty obvious separation is the only answer and the dog should never be hurt in the first place.
Dogs are animals. Not to be trusted regardless of breeeding. Not because they don't deserve it but because trust implies a level of thinking on the part of the other that that dogs do not possess. They are instinctive animals. They can be trained but they remain animals and need to be loved and cared for as such.

Leonberger · 01/04/2022 08:32

Everyone saying that all dogs are the same and that no dog is more dangerous/prey driven than another needs to do some research.

There’s a massive difference genetically in the different breeds. Puppies are born with personalities much like people, they don’t come out blank Hmm

oblada · 01/04/2022 08:37

@Leonberger

Everyone saying that all dogs are the same and that no dog is more dangerous/prey driven than another needs to do some research.

There’s a massive difference genetically in the different breeds. Puppies are born with personalities much like people, they don’t come out blank Hmm

Absolutely. But owners have a much bigger responsibility than genetics. Some breed may be more prey driven but that makes them better at certain activities. And within those breeds every dog is different. Banning breed is stupid and misses the point which is about educating owners.
Sathexperience · 01/04/2022 08:57

@MatildaTheCat

Aggressive/dangerous dogs and babies/small children do not mix, should never be mixed and it shouldn't take more deaths for the law to change around this. AIBU?

No dogs are completely safe around children let alone very young ones. There needs to be a concerted campaign to address this. I believe some breeds are very highly represented in domestic attacks but there isn’t one dog I would trust 100% including my own soppy mutt.

Couldn't agree more. Lots of people think they understand dog behaviour because they've had a few as pets, but are actually very very naive about the capabilities of any dog.
Nap1983 · 01/04/2022 08:59

I have a lab, my DD is 13 and I leave her alone with him with no concerns. My nephews are 5 and a baby and I would not leave them alone… it’s more how my dog might react to the kids unpredictability like running, shouting & screaming. Also he’s big so could knock over when excited.

Wheniruletheworld · 01/04/2022 09:00

Dogs aren't inherently dangerous. Sadly, some idiots/wankers/arrogant sods (delete as appropriate) become dog owners and make them dangerous through goading, punishment or just general f-wittery

Hoppinggreen · 01/04/2022 09:04

@MangyInseam

It depends on what you mean by cock.

Oops. Crock, it should say.

I mean the “nanny dog” label NO dog should be viewed in that way and the term gets bandied around whenever people mention Staffies (which do tend to be dog reactive but usually ok with people). No dog should be left alone with small children
Hoppinggreen · 01/04/2022 09:10

We have a Goldie, have had them since I was around 8. They have a reputation as good family pets, which is probably why I have to regularly peel toddlers off him while the parent looks on fondly. He’s pretty good with people and does like children but he has teeth and claws and is a big boy, he could easily hurt a child without even meaning to.
We had a GR puppy when I was about 13 and a friends family got one from the same litter. Their dog accidentally knocked their toddler downstairs and he fractured his skull. I waited until my youngest child was 8 before we got our dog.
I love dogs and volunteer for a couple of rehoming charities but I do t think small children and dogs is a good combination

ThatDamnedDog · 01/04/2022 10:12

Dogs are of no overall benefit to society. They don’t grow up and pay taxes like children do, they just use up the worlds resources and leave shit everywhere.

Tell that to veterans, the visually impaired, deaf people, people with mental health disorders or lonely Gladys down the road who only has a dog for company.

I agree some dog owners shouldn’t be allowed to keep them, but tarring every dog owner with the same brush is ridiculous. I don’t particularly like other peoples children when they are acting in an unacceptable manner, does that mean all parents are arseholes who can’t control their offspring?

I have never taken my animals to the shops/a restaurant/the pub as I don’t believe it is beneficial to them or the other patrons. I spend a lot of my life training and exercising my dogs and they only go off lead in a secure paddock belonging to my friend. I would never leave any child with any animal without supervision as both are capable of unpredictable behaviour. Nor do I belittle people for not wanting to be near my animals as they don’t know them and the boys are big.

As a dog owner I am as fed up of judgemental pricks as people who dislike dogs are of me. If it wasn’t for my beautiful girl, who has since passed, I wouldn’t be here.

CounsellorTroi · 01/04/2022 10:22

I'm on a parenting group and every other week someone is asking how to STOP their little one from hurting/hitting/bothering the dog. It's maddening. It's pretty obvious separation is the only answer and the dog should never be hurt in the first place.

If you look at the Dogs Trust website a significant proportion of the dogs available will have “cannot live with children under 14” in their description. This is not because the dog is inherently dangerous, it’s because they have been mistreated intentionally or otherwise by children.

CounsellorTroi · 01/04/2022 10:25

Dogs are of no overall benefit to society. They don’t grow up and pay taxes like children do, they just use up the worlds resources and leave shit everywhere.

Tell that to veterans, the visually impaired, deaf people, people with mental health disorders or lonely Gladys down the road who only has a dog for company.

There are proven mental and physical health benefits to dog ownership

SpringsSprung · 01/04/2022 10:35

Those of you saying "It's the idiots who don't train them" www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/woman-killed-dutch-shepherd-k9-dog-b2048382.html

Thelnebriati · 01/04/2022 10:57

A trained dog obeys the person who trains it, and in cases like that working K9 dog will only obey its handler. In the UK they can't be kept in the handlers house for that reason.

WorryMcGee · 01/04/2022 11:02

I adore dogs and have two Labradors, one of which is a therapy dog and particularly gentle with children; even very unpredictable children/children with SEN. They are both soppy, lovely dogs BUT I would never leave either of them with young children - I wouldn’t even leave them with another adult that had young children unless that adult is someone they know well (family members that have their own dogs and take them when we are on holiday, for example). These events are tragic but it’s not breed specific - all owners of any dog, “dangerous” breed or not, must take personal responsibility.

JudyGemstone · 01/04/2022 12:58

@Ionlydomassiveones

“Amazing how bad owners can be at reading the emotions of their own dogs.”

Yep we had a beautiful dog in the extended family - lovely temperament, obedient, good around small children. But there were a few of us it would uncharacteristically growl at and attack our ankles. It was a rescue so who knows what was behind that psychology but when the owners said it was a gentle dog - it was - but not all of time in every situation.

You don’t mention what breed it was, but that’s sounds like it could have been herding behaviour rather than aggression as such.
HotnSunnyRainbowRoses · 01/04/2022 13:16

I don’t know what the answer is with regards to dangerous behaviour from dogs but I do think the way the U.K. views dogs is totally, totally wrong.
And I say that as a dog owner.

You seem to get two camps; one that despised dogs and wants them muzzled and leashed at all times, it better, banned entirely and the other that thinks they are all sweet, friendly, harmless little living toys that can do wrong and don’t really need to learn polite behaviour around people or other dogs ‘because they just want to play’ and have to accept all and every interaction from a person that wants it.
Both are wrong.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been absolutely aghast at the behaviour of people, both to my own dogs and witnessing it with others.
No common sense whatsoever.

Insisting on reaching out and touching dogs that are cowering and hiding behind their owners, DDs school has a pet day once a year and one mum took her massive malamute in that I knew had growled at kids before then proudly told me ‘He didn’t growl once! I was so worried as he growls at my kids all the time’ 😱 I mean really, WTF?!?!
Children stroking my dogs without asking me as we walk past, children running at my dogs screaming DOGGY!!!!!! at the top of their lungs, I’ve had a toddler flip the lips of my bigger dog and start touching her teeth, I’ve had a child who is old enough to know better ask to stroke her and proceed to hug her so tight she was practically head locked, I’ve had kids ask to my stroke my little dog to be told they can stroke my big dog but not to touch my little one as he is shy and doesn’t like being stroked and they still try to touch him, I’ve even had a child try to pick my little dog up, I’ve had children running past my dog (inches away) screaming at their tops of their lungs, riding scooters right past, I’ve had two kids hide behind a wall and jump out and shout boo to try and scare me and my dogs.
I’ve even had incidents of violence where children have just randomly approached my dog and gone to hit or kick her.

While I do find it disturbing that fatal attacks tend to be the same small number of breeds I do also think that a hell of a lot more education re sensible behaviour around dogs is needed and it goes both ways.
Parents should not be allowing kids to run at dogs screaming or touch them without consent and equally dog owners need to start training their dogs properly.
They shouldn’t be jumping at people, barking in cafes, running free with no recall etc.

The whole perception of dogs in the UK I just feel is wrong and dangerous.

10speckledfrogs · 01/04/2022 13:16

I have two large dogs ( working line German shepherd and a st bernard) both private rescues or rehomes (the shepherd was 3 months old when we got him, the St Bernard was 18 months) and both from difficult backgrounds (St Bernard was left to it in a field without shelter, German Shepherd proved too much for his first owner to handle). My toddler was under 1.

Me and my partner both worked in rescue for over 20 years between us. We have seen it all from aggression, to nervousness, to loving bombproof dogs, to pure mentally unstable animals that shouldn't be near people.

Strangely enough we had more problems with small lapdog and terrier breeds in terms of aggression, the amount of dogs who are treated as portable stuffed toys and not like dogs resulting in a confused animal that has no idea how to interact appropriately with either it's own species or humans is crazy. We had small dogs with do not enter signs on kennels who had to be corralled into pens before carrying out cleaning and feeding. There were large dogs with aggression issues but this was normally down to fear from lack of socialization which was easily overcome.

Spaniels with rage syndrome was something we came across 6 times and that resulted in the dogs being put to sleep, those dogs are far too dangerous to be around anybody. And it comes on with no warning or signals or reason.

I grew up around German Shepherds and found them generally to be even tempered and reliable. My grandfather rescued them and never once did we end up with a dog that couldn't be rehabilitated to the point of being safe around him, most became friendly reliable dogs around children.

My own boys are gentle, good with the child. Friendly with visitors, don't jump up and respond to commands instantly. They will halt on the spot even at a distance when commanded to do so. It took a lot of work.

I still would not leave my child with them alone, I doubt they would ever attack and they are very careful with their paws but they are animals with teeth and health issues and injuries can occur in dogs. Even the most placid dog will react to pain and a warning snap at a child can cause damage even when it was not intended by the dog to do so. It doesnt matter whether that dog is large or small life changing injuries can occur and a bite from a small dog can cause death when aimed at the neck.

Don't leave any dog unattended around children and don't allow children to interact with a dog until you have owned it for a few months and know it's temperament in all situations.

As for those saying labs don't kill, or seriously maim, yes they do

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/garda%C3%AD-to-prepare-inquest-file-after-infant-girl-attacked-by-family-pet-dog-1.4587926

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003849/Boy-3-left-horrific-facial-injuries-Labrador-savages-Poole-Harbour.html

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-takes-down-mirrors-home-20333269

www.news24.com/you/archive/little-boy-killed-by-family-labrador-in-horror-attack-20170728

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dog-killed-2-month-old-baby-ripped-child-legs-father-slept-room-police-article-1.1065711

www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/scd-familys-shock-as-pet-labrador-attacks-baby-son/319679/

Just a few cases and that was a 5 minute search

BasiliskStare · 01/04/2022 13:19

@CounsellorTroi - I agree with this - there are therapy dogs - dogs for the blind - I have seen a video where the dog learned to press the buttons to let a disabled man in to his flat - I think ( & I do not have a link) that dogs can be calming and lower blood pressure & a neighbour of mine who is widowed - her dog is her companion - he is old.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say the world would be a worse place without nice well behaved and trained dogs. But I know many will disagree with me.

I do not agree that all dogs are of no benefit to society. Badly trained dogs and careless owners - different and sad point. We waited until DS was 9 before getting our first dog. But - DGPs lab who was on his last legs would not have harmed DS when he was a toddler - - dog was exhausted and old - he had to be hauled on to his feet before he was sadly PTS and there were always many of us in the room when he was there.

I agree with those who say having a dog you cannot cope with of whatever size is wrong. But - not all dogs are dangerous with suitable training and vigilance.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 01/04/2022 13:28

@Fairisleflora

I do think some owners forget that having a dog is their lifestyle choice, and it is unacceptable for their dog to obstruct the lives of those who don’t want anything to do with your dog. So no, I don’t want your dog to be anywhere near me in a public place - if it comes anywhere near me I expect you to call it back. If the dog doesn’t respond to your calling it needs to be on a lead at all times. Dogs shouldn’t be allowed to ‘join in’ my kids football game in a public park. It’s not ‘cute’ it is 100% unacceptable.

Dogs are of no overall benefit to society. They don’t grow up and pay taxes like children do, they just use up the worlds resources and leave shit everywhere. If you want a dog, get one but get it out of my face.

I’d be careful with a statement like this

They don’t grow up and pay taxes like children do, they just use up the worlds resources and leave shit everywhere.

That describes a huge swath of human society as well.

VampireMoney · 01/04/2022 13:34

@10speckledfrogs I've worked with local independent shelters, breed specific shelters,. and grew up around parents who bred and rescued German shepherds, so your post resonates with me. I agree with your points about the smaller/terrier type breeds. Jack Russels were bred as ratters and have such a high prey drive and yet because they're small people see them as ideal for families.

All dogs are animals. All have the ability to maim. The complacency of some small dog owners is breathtaking.

@HotnSunnyRainbowRoses I've had much the same with my dogs, I have American Akitas and also a Manchester terrier and the amount of children who have no idea how to act around dogs is astounding. I've had to pick my small one up countless times just to stop children trying to pick her up! With my Akitas I've had random children bark at them, try to scare them, throw things at them, and the parents just wander on without a word!

My male akita is a therapy dog. He's bombproof. He gets a pat on the head from countless elderly people every month, SN adults and teens at the community centre I visit with him. He's used to every kind of unpredictable movement and sound.

It's still not ok for random kids to rush up to him making barking sounds and pulling his tail!

BasiliskStare · 01/04/2022 13:36

@Fairisleflora Dogs are of no overall benefit to society

some dogs are.

Which is not to say they should not bother your children. There is a middle ground.

nalabae · 01/04/2022 13:55

This breed of dog just tried to go for me whilst being tied up outside Tesco.
If that was my American bully he would wag his tail and lick your hand.

Who’s the dangerous dog?

Why do people keep dangerous dogs???