Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5

Original poster

AIBU to think girls are being treated unfairly?

121 replies

glassankles · 30/03/2022 16:03

I am not a mother, but my younger sister has made me aware of an issue in her class that's upsetting her and by extension me.

My sister is 11 years old and is in 5th class (UK year 6). For some time now her male classmates have been taken out of class to receive extra maths lessons by another teacher. These lessons focus on more advanced topics such as algebra and geometry, while the girls are instructed to read books. When the teacher enters the classroom apparently she calls for the "buachailli" to go with her which is the Irish word for boys. This is in addition to the maths the whole class does.

My sister is a bit irritated at this because she wants to study maths at higher level in secondary school and feels she is now at a bit of a disadvantage. There is no plan to give the girls the same extra tuition that the boys are getting. AIBU to think this is ridiculous and to politely take it up with the school?

OP posts:

LizzieAnt · 31/03/2022 00:31

@EnzoArzo

Are you based in Kerry? A friend had the same. She wanted to do applied maths for leaving cert but was told she couldn’t as she was a girl.

Was this in a mixed-sex school where the subject was available? (Terrible if so!) Or was she a student in a single-sex school that just didn't offer the subject? Not all schools offer all Leaving Cert subjects, and single-sex schools are still sometimes 'old-fashioned' with regard to the choice available. The boys' secondary school local to us does not offer Home Economics as a subject choice for example, while it is available in the local girls' and mixed-sex schools.

Just wondering too how many girls are in your sister's class OP? The situation seems very unfair on the face of it, but needs closer examination to find out what's going on.

Ohnonevermind · 31/03/2022 00:50

I went to a single sex school in Dublin, we had the option of honours maths and applied maths (I did both)

When I moved to Kerry I was suprised to hear a colleague saying that honour maths wasn’t offered in her school and that a few girls had to go to the boys school to do it.

EnzoArzo · 31/03/2022 08:45

@LizzieAnt it was the same as what @Ohnonevermind said. It was a single sex school that didn’t offer applied maths but the adjoining boys school did. She wasn’t allowed to go across and do it as it was ‘ for boys’. Even though sharing classes was normal if required similar to the example @ohnevermind gave.

LizzieAnt · 31/03/2022 09:35

That was awful so @EnzoArzo.
I know the system - when I was at school (many years ago now) any girl doing Leaving Cert Physics had to go to the local boys' school for those classes too.

Awalkintime · 31/03/2022 17:12

I can't remember algebra being studied before first year secondary school, where it was explained as being like goals and points.

Algebra is done in all year groups even EYFS with 4 year olds in schools.

eggandonion · 31/03/2022 17:34

@Awalkintime - are you in the UK? OP is in Cork, which is not in the UK.
The syllabus is different in Ireland.

lanthanum · 31/03/2022 17:52

Her parent/carer needs to ask on what basis the children have been selected for this extra input. It might be based on their attainment so far - in which case it might be less obviously discrimination.

However having that imbalance suggests they ought to be looking at why that's the case. Are the boys genuinely stronger mathematicians? Does their style of assessment favour boys? Does the way the boys behave make the teacher believe they are stronger? Is there subconscious bias going on?

I was at a Saturday masterclass for maths (12/13 year olds), and although there was an even gender split, it was interesting to notice that the boys were much more likely to volunteer answers. I wonder whether that sort of thing leads to girls being less likely to be identified as needing the extension work. You could have similar issues if the boys write their answers down without working (making the teacher think they are clever) but the girls dutifully set it out the way they've been shown, even if they could do it in their head.

Whenever children were taken out of my daughter's class for maths extension work, it was all boys bar two. Those two girls were actually the best (so were never going to be missed out), but one of the other girls is doing better than most of those boys at secondary - so it's possible that there was subconscious bias going on there too.

poetryandwine · 31/03/2022 18:30

U.K. based female mathematician here.

This is not the method @FoodieToo described used in Dublin for selecting pupils for enrichment: there is no way that 16/18 boys got scores in the 98th or 99th centiles. It is also farfetched that this is an early introduction to advanced topics for the weakest 16, again all boys.

It is much more likely either automatic sexism of the worst kind or, as @ChateauMargaux says, a slightly more nuanced sexism based on the fact that boys are socialised from an early age to be more vocal and positive towards STEM subjects. That plays out in all sorts of ways.

The OP’s parents need to speak to the teacher or headteacher to clarify the situation. If it is as it sounds, I very much hope they will support her sister. I can assure them that she will remember their stance for the rest of her life.

Is it possible that the EU may have something to say about this?

poetryandwine · 31/03/2022 18:37

PS I also commend @lanthanum’s comments just above. I suppose it is barely possible that 16 boys currently rank above the top girl. But I would expect any decent teacher to see that as a huge red flag and be pausing any gendered segregation if it is the case. My own money is for the moment on sexism related to the anecdote a PP related concerning the situation in Kerry.

Unconscious bias is a kinder possibility than some but difficult to understand in this situation

converseandjeans · 31/03/2022 18:38

It might be a target that the school has been given - maybe boys have been underachieving so that's their focus for improvement? Or maybe they're genuinely better at maths?

eggandonion · 31/03/2022 19:00

As an aside, my kids between them spent 18 years in secondary school.
For 17 of those years they had a woman teaching them maths.
I really want to know the answer to ops question. I would have found it strange if one of my kids told me that was happening.

Awalkintime · 31/03/2022 19:04

[quote eggandonion]@Awalkintime - are you in the UK? OP is in Cork, which is not in the UK.
The syllabus is different in Ireland.[/quote]
It includes algebra as reasoning and problem solving are fundamental skills of maths.

Daffodilz · 31/03/2022 19:24

Sorry to ask does Ireland have a similar act to the Equality Act?

Daffodilz · 31/03/2022 19:26

Just looked surely this comes under the terms of the Equality act 2000-2015.

Ohnonevermind · 31/03/2022 19:57

It’s more likely that the powers that be decide that the boys are acting up ‘because they’re bored’ so the school are differentiating work for them. The girls however who are equally bored, sit quietly and politely so the same effort isn’t put into pushing them. Often the teacher will be quite glad to get the boys out of the classroom too.

In my daughters class the boys have been taken out for extra football during school but the girls have to go themselves after school.

If the girls threw around their books and vandalised the toilets they’d get all kinds of benefits currently afforded to the boys in my daughters school.

The boys also think that girls shouldn’t be able to do maths better than them. My daughter sees it as a challenge in the problem solving areas.

DrWhoNowww · 31/03/2022 19:59

@converseandjeans

It might be a target that the school has been given - maybe boys have been underachieving so that's their focus for improvement? Or maybe they're genuinely better at maths?

But it would be incredibly unlikely in a mixed ability class that the highest ranking girl in maths is at 17 so misses out surely?

And if that’s the case - that there are 16 boys better than the best girl, then the school has utterly failed the girls which needs investigating.

The same works vice Versa as well - if they are underachieving then why are the lowest ranked students all boys? Where has the teaching gone wrong for them?

In a mixed ability, mixed sex class you’d expect largely to see a mix of girls and boys at each ability level.

Thewindwhispers · 31/03/2022 19:59

Sounds illegal under sex discrimination legislation…

Daffodilz · 31/03/2022 23:24

It flipping is. Women have died for our hard fought for rights. Don't tolerate this.

Daffodilz · 31/03/2022 23:28

To quote Mary Robinson "Rock the system"

poetryandwine · 01/04/2022 08:23

Hi, OP -

These are very big guns you may not wish to invoke, especially before trying a gentler, more constructive approach. But if all is as it seems - because these numbers are so striking it is difficult to account for them on the grounds of educational attainment or aptitude ( assuming a reasonable number of girls in the class) - then the situation appears to violate Article 21 of the EU Charter as well as various Gender Equality in Education EU mandates

Unfortunately Ireland seems to have stalled its Equaity for Women and Girls project, apparently down to COVID.

I was largely taught by nuns in the formative years and after finishing the primary curriculum early I was simply excused from Maths to function as a teaching assistant for Y1-2 for my final year. I suspect those nuns would regard my PhD as the work of the devil. That the situation you have described is happening now to your DSis is boiling my blood. I very much hope she will be supported to follow her choices

eggandonion · 01/04/2022 09:54

Im still waiting to find out if the school explains the reasons for whatever is happening!
And yes, girls should have exactly the same opportunities as boys, either in extending their knowledge or receiving extra help. But I don't think teachers would discuss procedures with a sibling?

Flip

1 2 3 4 5