To think this is not a good excuse re: school toilets

[SummerDays2020]

I was at a PTA meeting last week. The school toilets were being discussed. I mentioned that my Y5 DD had said that the boys and girls had to share their toilets and that I didn't think it was appropriate at that age. I was told it was true but 'it was the way things were going, nowadays'. Well, that may be true but I still don't think it is appropriate.

Should I push further or is it acceptable nowadays that boys and girls of 9/10 years old should be expected to share toilets?

How would a boy have a period when he would have no uterine lining to shed @Hollyharndale776?

...that I didn't think it was appropriate at that age. I was told it was true but 'it was the way things were going, nowadays'.

The reason it's the way things are going is because adults who don't think it's appropriate are not wiling to stand up to it. They're more afraid of being accused of being a bigot than they are about doing what they believe is in children's best interests. Sharing public toilet facilities with males is not in the interests of females whatever their age but perhaps more specifically for younger females who may be self conscious about the changes to their bodies that puberty brings.

It also seems that although they agree with you they have not bothered to do any research about the legality of it. It will be tough for you to take a stand but I think once you organise your arguements against mixed sex toilets you will probably find others will support you. Do no let this go unchallenged. Show your daughter women have a right to use their voice to argue for their rights. It's appalling that she is going all day without using the loo because the school are more concerned with either saving money or being seen to move with the times.

@Ohwhocares22

Primary head here. Have never considered it so can't advise on the legality but ..... I can't see that it would be in the remit of the PTA anyway. Please address your concerns to the head not the PTA

Yes I have been involved in PTAs at several schools and in various positions At no point was school policy within our remit

I'm a primary supply teacher these days, and I can think of a number of schools that have unisex toilets for children up to Year 2 age. But once they're in the Year 3 and up ages, single sex all the way.

@Hollyharndale776

No they haven't, but they may have changed gender.

I'll just give you a heads up because you don't seem clear about the law. Self ID is not the law in the UK. When it comes to single sex facilities, people are treated as the sex on their birth certificate; and you cannot apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate until you are 18 and have fulfilled certain conditions. Children cannot change their legal gender.

When it comes to single sex facilities, people are treated as the sex on their birth certificate; and you cannot apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate until you are 18 and have fulfilled certain conditions.

And furthermore, there are circumstances where even those with a Gender Recognition Certificate can be excluded from the facilities/services/jobs etc from the sex they have legally acquired (by a kind of legal fiction, people cant actually change sex).

"Proportionate means to a legitimate end" is the wording (or something like that). I'd say separating out males & females in places like lavatories, and keeping such facilities single sex might be very much a proportionate means to a legitimate end.

@Hollyharndale776

No they haven't, but they may have changed gender.

Hollyharndale776 : boys can have periods too ... they may have changed gender.

[Of course this may be the extravagent and hyperbolic satire everyone would have taken it for when I were young. If so, chapeau , Hollyharndale776: you caught me, hook line and sinker. But if not and it feels very strange even to admit this as a possibility if not, Hollyharndale776 , well ...]

I tried to make sense of this the best way I could. The only possible way of doing so comes if we take the sense of 'gender' (originally from US psychology and sociology) as follows: 'The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones' (see OED 'gender' (3)(b))

OK, so these children may have changed gender. That is, in this uniquely possible sense, they may have changed their state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences rather than biological ones, so that having originally been in the state of being female, as expressed by biological distinctions and differences as well as by social or cultural distinctions and differences, they now, although still in the state of being female as expressed by biological distinctions and differences, are in the state of being male as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences.

So are they boys, these children who 'may have changed gender'?

No.

-- They remain girls because they remain in the state of being female as expressed by biological distinctions and differences.

You are wrong, Hollyharndale776, even under the most charitable interpretation possible of what you claim. -- Wrong.

Boys cannot have periods.

[Of course this is no more than something of a jeu d'esprit -- I am killing time isolated with Covid and do not feel up to doing anything too demanding. Whatsnewpussyhat has a much better response: Don't be ridiculous.

This gender shite is too ridiculous for words, really; we could laugh at it if it did not have the awful consequences it does for some of our children. I really wish they would piss off with their arrant nonsense, Hollyharndale776 and their ilk.]

"Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes" www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Gender reassignment:paragraph 28

Effect

739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.

Background

740.This paragraph replaces a similar provision in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.

Example

• A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

It's quite astonishing that some rape crisis centres are ignoring these exemptions and refusing to provide single sex services.

Until penis owners can reliably 'go' without pissing on a seat nobody should be expected to share...

@SummerDays2020

Thank you, as I thought. My DD doesn't use the toilets as is uncomfortable with sharing. She also finds them dirty. This leads to many walks home from school with her desperate for the toilet!

Thank you for the information. It is a large school and they have different toilets for different year groups which are near their classrooms.

She may find using the disabled toilet more comfortable. Anyone can use it, even if they're not disabled. They're usually cleaner than shared toilets.

Mixed sex straight onto the corridor with full length doors and a basin inside are proven to be the safest option because they are easily monitored, a sanitary disposal bin should be in all of them and at least 1 per 250 students should be fully accessible as per guidance (one should include a changing bench ideally but space and cost are cited as why they are not put into new buildings let alone retrofitting

@Feelingoktoday

So you aren't comfortable with using a cubicle? So disabled people who (assuming there is a disabled toilet) have to use a unisex cubicle straight onto the corridors 99% of the time have to put up with it but not you? I was bullied in the girls toilets, as was my dd, we both support these new anti bullying toilets. The lock issue is easily solved by using an alun key to release rather than coin

So you aren't comfortable with using a cubicle? So disabled people who (assuming there is a disabled toilet) have to use a unisex cubicle straight onto the corridors 99% of the time have to put up with it but not you?

Disabled toilets are not cubicles, they are classed as individual rooms.

@Whatwouldscullydo

My child is in their 3rd year there now and says there are no issues with the loo set up. It’s been designed to prevent as much bad behaviour in them as possible

I hate this with a passion. Everyone knows girls do not speak up. Everyone knows that the whole point of grooming ( im using the G word to talk about CSA befire anyone reports me ) is to erode boundaries so the child being abused has no idea that particular behaviours are not actually normal. So every sexually abused child, each one the staff may well be aware of, will not speak up because they don't know they should. And because they may well have had threats made in order to ensure they keep their months shut.

Any teacher who suddenly forgets these basic facts needs to stop patting themselves on the back for coming up with a " solution" to bullying, well they say solution the rest of us say the girls are just having to absorb the bad behaviour , and walk out that door.

My daughter definitely speaks up although I’m aware other children do not. She’s also been sexually assaulted (as have I, and raped) albeit not on school grounds or in unisex toilets.

I’m only posting what I know in my personal experience and that of what my child has said- there’s been no issues. Every cubicle has a sanitary bin, no one can spy on others using the toilet, there are no gaps to slide a phone under to try and take inappropriate photos. Even the fucking graffiti isn’t that bad, probably because school staff use them too.

But if kids don't speak up you won't know there are issues.

You could have a child hating it or getting hurt every day but if no one knows about it you can.all say there are no issues.

How do you know for sure?

Sorry for what's happened to you and your dd

@Whatwouldscullydo

But if kids don't speak up you won't know there are issues.

You could have a child hating it or getting hurt every day but if no one knows about it you can.all say there are no issues.

How do you know for sure?

I don’t. Like I said, that’s based on what my child has told me. My friends child hates using the (single sex) loos at their school for various reasons including bullying. The toilets at my kid’s high school wasn’t designed with trans people in mind, at least not solely, it seems to have been to prevent bullying, keep them in better condition and as the staff use them too, inclusive I suppose. I did say I can’t speak for everyone who attends.

@Easterbunnyiswindowshopping

Until penis owners can reliably 'go' without pissing on a seat nobody should be expected to share...

THIS!! We've had unisex toilets in the office since reopening after lockdown and these willy owners are simply not housetrained! Do they leave their bathrooms at home swimming in piss on the floor?? urgh

Nothing basically wrong with mixed sex individual use toilets but they need to be properly designed.
Individual rooms opening onto public corridor
Sink/hand drying materials/ sanitary bins in each room
Emergency alarm in case of illness
Locks on doors which require specialised tool to open from outside
Cleaning several times a day.

However, this is expensive and takes up a lot of physical space.

people with periods, boys can have periods too.

FFS.

If your 9 year old son is having a 'period', take him to the fucking doctor.

@FOJN

...that I didn't think it was appropriate at that age. I was told it was true but 'it was the way things were going, nowadays'.

The reason it's the way things are going is because adults who don't think it's appropriate are not wiling to stand up to it. They're more afraid of being accused of being a bigot than they are about doing what they believe is in children's best interests. Sharing public toilet facilities with males is not in the interests of females whatever their age but perhaps more specifically for younger females who may be self conscious about the changes to their bodies that puberty brings.

It also seems that although they agree with you they have not bothered to do any research about the legality of it. It will be tough for you to take a stand but I think once you organise your arguements against mixed sex toilets you will probably find others will support you. Do no let this go unchallenged. Show your daughter women have a right to use their voice to argue for their rights. It's appalling that she is going all day without using the loo because the school are more concerned with either saving money or being seen to move with the times.

Exactly this. People think they need to be nice and inclusive but they forget about the basics of safeguarding.

Girls loos should not be changed to make boys behave. Deal with the period shaming and bullying. As an adult I would HATE to have to share toilets with my male bosses and colleagues. We would all find it embarrassing. Why should how daughters have to suffer yet again.