To think this is not a good excuse re: school toilets

[SummerDays2020]

I was at a PTA meeting last week. The school toilets were being discussed. I mentioned that my Y5 DD had said that the boys and girls had to share their toilets and that I didn't think it was appropriate at that age. I was told it was true but 'it was the way things were going, nowadays'. Well, that may be true but I still don't think it is appropriate.

Should I push further or is it acceptable nowadays that boys and girls of 9/10 years old should be expected to share toilets?

[quote Enough4me]@Silverclocks, so the women and girls will be targeted with sudden open doors as they need to sit down and will be powerless to stop it, all to be 'inclusive' and kind.

Not progress in my eyes.[/quote]
Well I don't know that will happen but it feel like it could.

In this case I don't think the main motivator was to be inclusive, but to remove the opportunity for bullying for which toilet "blocks" are notorious.

My worry is that each cublice has one of those locks you can open from outside with a screwdriver (or coin) and I do wonder how long it will be before some poor child (or adult) gets the door opened as a "joke" while on the loo. But there does need to be a way to open from outside in an emergency.

That’s appalling. Absolutely not ok.

Safe Schools Alliance are not a reliable source on the law, they've been called out for giving inaccurate advice to schools on multiple occasions. They're an anti-trans lobby group and claim the law is what they think it should be, not what it actually is.

Did you mix up the Safe Schools Alliance with Stonewall?

"Stonewall ‘gave bad advice’ to university in free speech row | News | The Times" www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewall-gave-bad-advice-to-university-in-free-speech-row-z6b27jdkh

"The University of Essex turns on Stonewall - The Post" unherd.com/thepost/the-university-of-essex-exposes-stonewalls-toxicity/

claim the law is what they think it should be, not what it actually is

That's exactly what Stonewall did.

@Silverclocks

I have just last week received the keys for a brand new purpose built school.

All the toilets (staff and students) are unisex. All individual cubicles, complete with wash basin and sanitary bin. All open directly into the corridor, so there's no "communal" area where you'd usually have sinks and bullying. It seems like an improvement in very many ways.

My worry is that each cublice has one of those locks you can open from outside with a screwdriver (or coin) and I do wonder how long it will be before some poor child (or adult) gets the door opened as a "joke" while on the loo. But there does need to be a way to open from outside in an emergency.

That sounds horrendous. No way would I as an adult feel comfortable using those toilets.

That sounds horrendous. No way would I as an adult feel comfortable using those toilets.

No me neither but it is what we already have, in all sorts of buildings, for DDA toilets. I don't know that it will very happen, but it makes me nervous that it could .

I can guarantee that boys will open those doors on girls @Silverclocks

@Clymene

I can guarantee that boys will open those doors on girls *@Silverclocks*

How can you "guarantee" it? It's not the only school built this way and I've never heard of it happening. If it did, it would be massive safeguarding issue and schools would have heard!

@Ohwhocares22

Primary head here. Have never considered it so can't advise on the legality but ..... I can't see that it would be in the remit of the PTA anyway. Please address your concerns to the head not the PTA

It was just a general discussion at the PTA. I will of course address this further with the school not the PTA.

Schools have to find a better way to deal with bullying than to take away girls privacy.
Girls are being shamed over menstrual issues in schools with mixed sex toilets. Its illegal to force girls to use them, and its shocking to see them defended on a parenting forum.

Sorry, just to be clear it was a discussion around what the PTA could use their funds for and a representative of the school brought up the issue that the toilets were very old and needed updating.

@Thelnebriati

Schools have to find a better way to deal with bullying than to take away girls privacy. Girls are being shamed over menstrual issues in schools with mixed sex toilets. Its illegal to force girls to use them, and its shocking to see them defended on a parenting forum.

How are girls "shamed over menstrual issues" when unisex toilets are individual cubicles with wash basins and bins?

@Enough4me

Mixed sex facilities are fine provided plenty of adequate single sex facilities also exist. For example, a school may have a unisex visitor loo by a staffed reception area that children who feel unable to use the regular facilities for their sex can use. This means the majority may continue as normal.

In this situation these are the Y5 toilets and the only ones available to my DD.

What sources are you prepared to accept on this issue?

''One particular issue that was raised was that some girls are not going to school during their periods because they fear becoming a victim of “period shame” - where girls were meant to feel embarrassed, usually by boys, for having their period.''
www.thesun.co.uk/news/10077577/gender-neutral-toilets-school-girls-feel-unsafe/

''Parents and teaching staff have told The Mail on Sunday that female pupils feel deeply uncomfortable or even unsafe sharing toilets with male students.''
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7542005/Girls-skipping-school-avoid-sharing-gender-neutral-toilets-boys.html

The mixed sex toilets being installed are not individual cubicles leading on to a corridor. There are shared wash basins in the centre, girls have to walk out with blood on their hands and wash. They are cat called if boys hear them unrapping a tampon or pad.

@Silverclocks - these unisex toilets are not individual cubicles with basins and bins.

@Thelnebriati

The mixed sex toilets being installed are not individual cubicles leading on to a corridor. There are shared wash basins in the centre, girls have to walk out with blood on their hands and wash. They are cat called if boys hear them unrapping a tampon or pad.

Not the ones in the new school we will open after Easter.

The school is wrong. It’s illegal.

Girls are sexually harassed at school quite enough nowadays; they don’t need to have to be watchful and defensive when they are most vulnerable.

Silverclocks Thats a different situation from the one being discussed on this thread.
Self contained cubicles are an increased risk for spycams though, so the school will need to take that on board. The easist fix is probably to make the toilets a dead spot for wi fi.

@Silverclocks

I have just last week received the keys for a brand new purpose built school.

All the toilets (staff and students) are unisex. All individual cubicles, complete with wash basin and sanitary bin. All open directly into the corridor, so there's no "communal" area where you'd usually have sinks and bullying. It seems like an improvement in very many ways.

My worry is that each cublice has one of those locks you can open from outside with a screwdriver (or coin) and I do wonder how long it will be before some poor child (or adult) gets the door opened as a "joke" while on the loo. But there does need to be a way to open from outside in an emergency.

From experience, give it about 22 seconds on the first day.

They're a rubbish idea in schools.

I thought all school loos had that device where they could be opened from the outside in an emergency.

Only thing was it used to be in a single sex room so it was unlikely (unless in an emergency).

These are a bad idea

What about children with allergies/asthma/epilepsy etc. How will anyone ever see they collapsed or need medical attention if no one can see under the door.

If you don't believe ( despite the stats of a rape a day in schools including primary schools) in the risks of sexual assault one hopes asthma doesn't also make it into your fictional incident pile.

The gaps are there for a reason. The gaps become illegal in a mixed sex space.

Lives are being put at risk so adults don't have to say NO.

So wrong.

Jesus. No that's not acceptable. I'm not being funny but even as a fully grown (not young) adult, I wouldn't find toilet sharing acceptable. If I was in there alone and a bloke was in there (no one else) i would feel really vulnerable!? And I remember as s child feeling awkward about changing sanitary towels etc (people can hear) even with other girls, never mind boys. They just shouldn't be put in that position.

What is the set up? When did the change happen and why?

Some schools did this during covid so bubbles wouldn't mix . One class would have one set of toilets right outside the classroom. Of course we wouldn't send all the kids in at once, and the classes that were using the previously boys' toilets were reminded not to use the urinals for everyone's privacy and comfort. Now everything is back to girls and boys toilets.

DD's school has mixed toilets in the classroom. 4 cubicles. I actually don't know what the hand washing situation is but I will ask since they are y5 and the while period/hand washing/sanitary products disposal is looming.

If the basins are in a shared area this set up is illegal for children over 8.
Mixed sex facilities must be self contained cubical with wash basin inside.
This style presents safety issues as mentioned above but might be better for most girls than shared sinks and cubicles with massive gaps above and below.
There is no such thing as 'gender neutral' toilets, they never have been divided by people's feelings or what they are wearing but by sex.
The toilets at your daughter's school are mixed sex.
They are illegal.

Here in Scotland, there's a huge ideological push for mixed sex toilets ('gender neutral' is a misnomer) -

"The Times Scotland on Twitter: "Girls are refusing to use gender-neutral toilets at Scottish secondary schools amid reports male pupils have been seen “waving sanitary products like flags” and urinating in sanitary bins t.co/SNdH7B2ERc" / Twitter" mobile.twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1464163606770352130?lang=en

"Scots school forced to make U-turn on unisex toilets after backlash" www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2021/08/24/1170765-scots-school-forced-to-make-u-turn-on-unisex-toilets-after-backlash-scottish-news/

"Parents voice concern over planned unisex-only toilets at new Ness Castle and Ness-side primary and nursery school in Inverness; Highland Council defends the plan as accepted across Scotland and a means to reduce bullying behaviour" www.northern-times.co.uk/news/parental-concern-at-unisex-only-toilets-plan-for-new-primary-265874/

"Mixed sex toilets in schools - Woman's Place UK" womansplaceuk.org/2018/11/12/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/

The last link above gives good questions to ask Schools.