To say this pissed me off about my booking appointment ?

[chattycaterpillar]

I had a pregnancy booking appointment recently, and was talking to a friend about this yesterday, and she agreed this equally pissed her off about her's too, ( she had hers 12 months ago in the same NHS trust).

The actual medical questions were almost skimmed over, ( I wasn't asked if I had any medication allergies, even though I have a serious allergy to doxycycline). But the amount of nosy, social questions asked to "judge," your suitability to parent was ridiculous.

Examples on the proforma list included:

• How long have you been with your partner ? ( Yes, it is a long-term relationship so wasn't an issue for me, but my friend's child was conceived after a short fling and she didn't want to be answering exactly how long it was).

• What is your highest level qualification/ are you educated to degree level ? ( I'm educated to degree level, but interested in the medical relevance of this. Imagine getting asked that at any other medical appointment ...)

• Are you employed ? Is it full time work, what do you do for work ? What does your partner do for work ? ( Why on earth is it medically relevant what my partner does as his job ? )

• Does your partner have any other children ? ( No, but again, not medically relevant...)

• Do you own or rent your property ? ( Why, do you want to take a look at my mortgage deeds....)

Seemed to be a lot more interested in asking a list of nosy, intrusive questions than either a) a serious physical health condition I have that could impact the birth, or b) my medication allergies.

I'm just trying to work out in what other medical scenario this would be appropriate...

If it's all about data capture could complete the answers through an app with midwives picking up only those who have not responded. It shouldn't be difficult in the 21st Century.

@RosesAndHellebores

If it's all about data capture could complete the answers through an app with midwives picking up only those who have not responded. It shouldn't be difficult in the 21st Century.

Absolutely. The fact maternity notes are paper based (mine are at least, currently 33 weeks) is ridiculous. But let’s remember the NHS was working with windows XP until fairly recently . Tech is massively behind in the nhs and, as you rightly point out, improvement would save massive amounts of time and money.

these questions aren’t for judging you and nobody has ever suggested they should be

Oh come on, have you met any health professionals? Of course they judge - they would need to be inhuman to avoid it. We hope they manage to mostly put it to one side - some do, not all manage it.

The nhs is trying to care for the population and find areas of need. If you don’t like being part of that population then don’t engage with the nhs. God forbid your experiences of health care might lead to its improvement and benefit someone else

I find your faith in how some of this data is used very touching but its misplaced. Ask your midwife where the data goes, ask why its collected in some areas and not others, ask why the data captured is not reliably used to help the individual whose appointment time is being used for a data capture exercise. The likelihood of them being able to give you accurate answers is near as dammit zero.

There is nothing wrong with doing demographic studies and research (although a bit more coordination would save a lot of wasted time and money).

The problem here is the lack of informed consent and the reassignment of patient appt time (which as we are told a million times a day is utter gold dust) to gather that data.

Emotional blackmail along the lines of "you don't care about other people" is frankly emotional blackmail and should be treated as such.

@C8H10N4O2

these questions aren’t for judging you and nobody has ever suggested they should be

Oh come on, have you met any health professionals? Of course they judge - they would need to be inhuman to avoid it. We hope they manage to mostly put it to one side - some do, not all manage it.

The nhs is trying to care for the population and find areas of need. If you don’t like being part of that population then don’t engage with the nhs. God forbid your experiences of health care might lead to its improvement and benefit someone else

I find your faith in how some of this data is used very touching but its misplaced. Ask your midwife where the data goes, ask why its collected in some areas and not others, ask why the data captured is not reliably used to help the individual whose appointment time is being used for a data capture exercise. The likelihood of them being able to give you accurate answers is near as dammit zero.

There is nothing wrong with doing demographic studies and research (although a bit more coordination would save a lot of wasted time and money).

The problem here is the lack of informed consent and the reassignment of patient appt time (which as we are told a million times a day is utter gold dust) to gather that data.

Emotional blackmail along the lines of "you don't care about other people" is frankly emotional blackmail and should be treated as such.

I am a health professional and am married to one so yes I have met a few.

I said the questions aren’t FOR judging, I didn’t say midwives don’t judge. But asking what level of education a person has is completely different to asking if they smoke or if their partner has children they don’t see. No midwife is sitting there thinking “only 1 a level, well you’re obviously thick”. If you say you’re smoking and don’t plan to cut down then yeah, they might judge you. I would.

Do I think a midwife would know where this data goes? No, because they aren’t told. It’s a huge leap to assume this means it ISNT used, or isn’t used usefully. Do you know where it goes? I would be, genuinely, interested to hear if this is an area you work in.

Informed consent is a fair point, if people object to the nhs doing research then yes I guess they should be able to shave 90seconds off their appointment time by not answering the questions directly relevant.

Which would they be? What is your level of education would need to be replaced by “do you have any difficulty with reading and writing English?” because this is important. ‘Do you rent or own’ could go, but would that risk women of NFA or who live in hostels going unsupported?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or just ridiculously hormonal tonight?

And tbe prize for the most patronising post on Mumsnet goes to…. @PurplePansy05

It is very irritating being on the receiving end of these types of questions, especially when you know that you're more than capable and competent to be a parent.

Unfortunately, there are fair more parents to be who have social/lifestyle issues that would be a major risk for a baby being born into their world. The only way to find out these things is to ask questions and try to build a picture of that family's life.
I know this from professional experience (prev A&E nurse and health visitor- now SAHM).
As frustrated as you feel, the midwife is doing her job. This appointment is the first of many, but if you feel there is anything she needs to know medically, feel free to bring it up.
As a health visitor, I was often asked by clients why questions like these are asked and focused on so much. I always tried to remind them as politely as possible, that if these questions aren't asked and a baby was born and taken home to a dangerous environment and something terrible happened to that child. There would be public uproar and people asking why health professionals didn't dig more and find out about these types of risks!

It's something that seems very invasive and uncomfortable to discuss, but it is so so important for those baby's that might be at risk of harm in the future, that these types of questions are asked and explored as early as possible.

@Killeen88

It is very irritating being on the receiving end of these types of questions, especially when you know that you're more than capable and competent to be a parent.

Unfortunately, there are fair more parents to be who have social/lifestyle issues that would be a major risk for a baby being born into their world. The only way to find out these things is to ask questions and try to build a picture of that family's life.
I know this from professional experience (prev A&E nurse and health visitor- now SAHM).
As frustrated as you feel, the midwife is doing her job. This appointment is the first of many, but if you feel there is anything she needs to know medically, feel free to bring it up.
As a health visitor, I was often asked by clients why questions like these are asked and focused on so much. I always tried to remind them as politely as possible, that if these questions aren't asked and a baby was born and taken home to a dangerous environment and something terrible happened to that child. There would be public uproar and people asking why health professionals didn't dig more and find out about these types of risks!

It's something that seems very invasive and uncomfortable to discuss, but it is so so important for those baby's that might be at risk of harm in the future, that these types of questions are asked and explored as early as possible.

But the point is @Killeen88, whether someone has a degree or how long they have been with their partner isn't going to be a risk to the baby ? You are not going to get referred to SS for only being with your partner a couple of months or for deciding not to do a degree 10 years ago.

I do understand questions about alcohol/ drugs/ MH are valid, but surely most recreational drug users are going to lie anyway as they don't want SS involvement ?

I totally understand you're arguement and I would agree with you that educational attainment is a very strange question and not one I've ever come across myself professionally. I'm not really sure why that was included in your appointment in all honesty.
I wonder if it's aim, is to ascertain if there is any issues with learning difficulties or reading issues. But if that's the case, it should be asked more directly in relation to these issues, for example:- do you have any difficulties with reading or writing?

However, the relationship length question does have some relevance in relation to risk.
A real life example of this that I came across, was a lady that had a baby with a man who she'd only known for a month before getting pregnant. There were a few concerns that also were identified alonside the short relationship, but when health professionals put a picture together of this lady's life and social circumstances. It turned out she was a victim of human trafficking and had become pregnant as a result of being a sex worker (against her will). The father of the baby was a man that regularly paid to have sex with her. The relationship length question opened up the conversation as to how the two of them knew each other etc.
Whilst this seems like a scenario that doesn't happen often, it happens far more than most people would care to imagine.
The relationship length question was one of the key things that highlighted a very new "relationship".
Again, I agree that for the majority of women it's not relevant, intrusive to be asked and "judged" upon.
There are most definatel, many fantastic parents that have brought a baby into the world after one night stands or very early into a relationship (my sister and her now fiancé are one example of this - one night stand that turned into my beautiful niece and a fantastic relationship). But for some poor unsuspecting women (like the one I mentioned), that's not the case and that's why the relationship question is asked.

@Killeen88 that's genuinely really sad, were the women and her baby enabled to escape him/ kept together ?

I guess I had my own worry about being judged on various things, been with partner 14 months, so not one night stand but would they consider that long enough , worried about disclosing previous antidepressant use, ( not currently taking), and worried about being judged for being overweight, ( BMI of 28, so over the healthy 25 range).

It was incredibly sad to be honest and the stress the woman was under because of her circumstances was horrific to witness. Thankfully, she was eventually moved into a refuge for vunerable women and children in a different area of the country and with support, she was able to keep her baby. The last i heard she was living in a little apartment with her baby and they were both doing really well.😊
Her disclosure was actually the beginning of a massive police investigation into a big human trafficking ring in the area!

It's understandable that you have your own worries. Sometimes the questions can be a bit brutal, especially if their delivered with not much tact!

Don't worry about your relationship length!! As long as you know you have a supportive, loving partner and there are no red flags in the relationship (DV or something of the like). A 14 month relationship won't be seen as an issue at all!

Antidepressant use (current or historical) again isn't anything to worry about. The midwife will note it, purely because a history of mental health issues can make you more predisposed to getting antenatal or postnatal depression. If you're well now, it's nothing to feel worried about disclosing. In fact it's good to let them know, because if something does go amiss and your mental health is an issue down the line for any reason. Then the midwife/health visitor will already know and be able to offer you support if you need it.
I can't tell you how many people have a mental health history and use Antidepressant medication. It's far more common than you would ever think and is certainly nothing to be ashamed of!!!

You might find you end up being under consultant care during your pregnancy because of your high BMI. But again, please don't feel judged by this.
Health professionals will always push healthy lifestyles and address high BMI's, as its part of their role to do so. Although, I'm sure you would love to tell them to mind their own business! 😅
The consultant care (if you meet your nhs trusts criteria) will be to monitor you for certain conditions that you are more likely to get in pregnancy if you have a higher BMI. You'll most likely be absolutely fine and you'll have a healthy little baby in your arms before you know it! Try not to see it as a negative, but more of a positive that you'll get more input and that you and your baby will be monitored more to make sure you're both healthy and doing well! (I had consultant care with both my pregnancies and I loved that I got extra checks and scans for my own peace of mind).

I'm sure you're going to be a fantastic mummy, because you clearly care a lot!!! Wishing you and your partner all the best and good luck for the future! 😊

Not a professional just my opinion 14mths isn't a short relationship it's not that unusual for 30 somethings to be considering marriage at that point.

They really aren't looking to judge anyone but looking for the women and girls who are in vulnerable situations.
A 5 year violent relationship is more of a concern than a 14 mth relationship with normal happy boundaries.

Those questions are all about building up a whole picture, is the mum or child at risk or they in any way vulnerable, do we need to look for PND.

I don't have any gripe with those questions. What I will moan about is a hassle getting a form which couldn't be posted, faxed or emailed had to be collected and handed back to GP before they'd book me a MW appointment, half the questions about last period to be irrelevant and to write it is an ivf baby.
Only for MN to "ask is it planned" Eh no I had ivf by accident

been with partner 14 months, so not one night stand but would they consider that long enough

You seem to be ignoring all the posters telling you that they're not judging how long you've been with your Partner, they really don't care about length.

It is important because if it was a ONS/short fling then chances are you may not know much about the Dad's family medical history which they do ask about throughout the pregnancy.
STI's can also pose a big risk to baby so even though they do the blood tests on everyone that gives permission, you're more likely not to know if you've picked anything up from a ONS.

It can also pick up rape - as someone who has been there, it's not necessarily something you would bring up yourself as it's a hard subject but asking how long you've been with Dad etc will lead a lot of women to then tell them that it wasn't consensual etc.

You still seem hell bent on being offended when people have explained why they ask the questions they do and it's nothing to do with judging you

@Dinoteeth I suspect the reason they don't give it in advance is to ensure it's the woman herself who answers the questions.

I have an antibody in my blood which may affect the baby - the dad’s blood is tested to see if the baby will have the gene for my blood type / antibody - it’s very complex but you can Google alloimmunization if you want to actually know more - it occurred to me the other day how stressful this would be if you had no contact with dad or you didn’t know who he was. Not that I’d give a shit if someone was having a baby from a ONS or anything but there are lots of obscure reasons you might need to know what the relation ship is like, which you don’t even need to think about until it actually affects you

40 years ago you would have had a point. Now - you need to look around at other state backed health care systems and see how far behind we are.

The care my 12 year old daughter gets from the NHS with her disability is far superior to the care my neighbour received for her son with the same condition 40 years ago. We’ve spoken of it often.

[quote Twizbe]@Dinoteeth I suspect the reason they don't give it in advance is to ensure it's the woman herself who answers the questions. [/quote]
You've missed my point, I had to collect the very important form, fill it in and hand it back in. Before they'd book me an appointment with MW.
It was so important that the MW never read it.

They really aren't looking to judge anyone but looking for the women and girls who are in vulnerable situations
A 5 year violent relationship is more of a concern than a 14 mth relationship with normal happy boundaries

But questions about education, how long the relationship is, has the father any other children, jobs and whether they rent or own isn’t going to flag an abusive relationship

Education, is an odd one but I'd still think they'll have reasons for asking. It's might flag a mum who didn't complete school, ran away from home due to abuse at home etc. Does she have a supportive family now?

Father other children - it may flag other children he isn't allowed to see, due to abuse / neglect - that can definitely flag risk to the child.

Jobs - not sure why they ask that, of the 3 child abusers I know off 2 had middle class jobs one was a odd job man. But maybe they are looking to point in the right direction for benefit support.

Rent or Own makes a difference to how they help a woman leave if she needs to. Easier to walk away from a rental than a owned property.

A woman that I know had a degree, so did her husband, they had been married 5 years but had been living together for 5 years before that.
They owned their own home. They both had good careers.
None of the questions asked would have flagged anything wrong. Almost as though if you both have a degree, a good career, your own home and a family who support you then you don’t need help when you have a baby.

It took a throwaway comment from her about arranging some towels that to me indicated she was a victim of abuse

Abuse is there to see if you know what to look for but you can’t ask a series of questions that require a tick box answer and hope to spot red flags. Life is a lot more complicated than that but to an outsider looking in, especially someone who has suffered from abuse whether as a child or an adult it is far clearer to see.

@Member869894 Regular families' . I can only think you are really, really stupid to make that comment...regular families abuse their children I can only imagine you are really really stupid not to understand that I was use the term “regular families” to refer to non abusive families. If it makes it easier for you just scratch out the word regular and replace it with non abusive. HTH

One though on the degree question women with degrees more likely to breastfeed.

I don't know why that is the case but it is.

I'd say your social supports and set up is very important. This appt establishes that. Medical notes can be updated with your first appt- they aren't prescribing you anything there and then. Checking whether there are potential safety issues I'd put pretty high up the list for a midwife to work out........

From Dr Jess Taylor's fb page. I think it's for the bigger picture.

"Did you know that being subjected to domestic abuse is the most common risk during pregnancy, & outweighs every other health risk to mum & baby put together?

I learned that last year, and it really impacted me, being abused was more common than every other possible complication."

Looking at this from a totally different perspective.
My job is in insight and research, part of this is running surveys /questionnaires over a long period of time (some surveys have been in field for over a decade).
This questionnaire will be one of those.

When you get the data back on these surveys, over time you build up specific points where outcomes will differ. It feels that the 'degree' question will be one of points. The data will probably show that not having a degree outcomes statistically you may need more support.

@Pipsquiggle Surely if you work in research you understand the importance of informed consent and the ethics of making sure participants of research understand what their data will be used for, are told that participation is optional, and how they can withdraw?

None of that happens at booking in appointments. The questions are asked at what is made out to be a medical appointment for the woman’s personal benefit. If it’s a data gathering exercise, the usual consent process should be applied.