To say this pissed me off about my booking appointment ?

[chattycaterpillar]

I had a pregnancy booking appointment recently, and was talking to a friend about this yesterday, and she agreed this equally pissed her off about her's too, ( she had hers 12 months ago in the same NHS trust).

The actual medical questions were almost skimmed over, ( I wasn't asked if I had any medication allergies, even though I have a serious allergy to doxycycline). But the amount of nosy, social questions asked to "judge," your suitability to parent was ridiculous.

Examples on the proforma list included:

• How long have you been with your partner ? ( Yes, it is a long-term relationship so wasn't an issue for me, but my friend's child was conceived after a short fling and she didn't want to be answering exactly how long it was).

• What is your highest level qualification/ are you educated to degree level ? ( I'm educated to degree level, but interested in the medical relevance of this. Imagine getting asked that at any other medical appointment ...)

• Are you employed ? Is it full time work, what do you do for work ? What does your partner do for work ? ( Why on earth is it medically relevant what my partner does as his job ? )

• Does your partner have any other children ? ( No, but again, not medically relevant...)

• Do you own or rent your property ? ( Why, do you want to take a look at my mortgage deeds....)

Seemed to be a lot more interested in asking a list of nosy, intrusive questions than either a) a serious physical health condition I have that could impact the birth, or b) my medication allergies.

I'm just trying to work out in what other medical scenario this would be appropriate...

I think a woman is allowed to be 'me me me' when talking about her healthcare appointments and the fact that some midwives think this is problematic, suggests they are part of the problem frankly.

Don't worry I have nothing to do with women and their healthcare anymore. The questions are set on a population level, if you think there's the time of psychic know how when you first meet someone at a book appointment to mind read whether they will feel more offended by asking x way or y way then absolutely clueless. As I said people should feed it up the chain if they think its not fit for purpose or have feedback- I didn't enjoy asking them either. Some posts are very much criticising their midwives rather than the system.

@Dysco, I have made it very clear I didn't have an issue with the individual midwife, and understood she was reading from a set list of questions on a form produced by the NHS trust.

I can see how the format of these questions, ( set out by the trust), could increase anxiety and prevent people from asking for help as they would already feel labelled.

YYes, you are right, feeding back to the trust is probably a good idea.

I'm on about posts across the thread, not just yours. Feeding back can actually be effective at enacting change- or at least opening dialogue. The questions are only one level of judging what can be done to support someone, there are plenty of other elements that are taken into consideration. Unfortunately a lot of it is pointless anyway with other stretches pushed to their limits, it's sad and scary in equal measure.

It sounds horrible, and didn’t happen 15 years ago when I had my last.
But I guess it doesn’t crop up in other medical scenarios because as adults we are seen as accountable to ourselves, but if there’sa baby in the mix , HCPs are accountable too.

@Dysco, why it that you and @flipflopjump seem to think that it’s ok for MW (or any HCP) to ask questions wo explaining why first. To ask people to go on the scale Wo explain the context etc…

What is or hard about explaining first and foremost?

Asi said before, as a HCP, I would never treat my patients like this. I first explain why we are doing certain things, then we do them when questions have been answered. Because at a first appointment, the one thing you want to do is create trust.

Instead it feels like you think your role is to fill paperwork and if people aren’t happy, the responsibility is all theirs to either ask questions at the right time or at the right person - god forbid that a woman ask you what’s the point if those questions that have been set up by the trust!

Also the whole ‘no wonder MW are leaving the profession’ is tiring.

I know quite a few MW, some of which have left the professional/only work as agency/work privately etc… Itsbthe because of the patients that they’ve left the profession but because of the NHS an the way they were been treated by colleagues/boss/the whole structure.
Itnwouod be nice to stop making patients always the people responsible of the system collapsing when you, me, everyone knows thenissue aren’t the patients.

@chattycaterpillar tbh it doesn’t matter what anyone on here says. You’ve made up your mind that these questions were rude and intrusive. You don’t seem to have recognised that some women out there might benefit from the help their answers bring. Is it irritating? Maybe but they are trying to make sure they are there for people. All those questions have a reason behind them. They can’t possibly know who is going to start whinging about them. Just because it doesn’t benefit you it doesn’t make them wrong. Declaring your MH status might mean they are more aware about checking PND signs and be there for you if you need them.

I've name changed as I like to post across a range of topics and don't want to be linked back!

But as a midwife I give an overview before asking any of the questions and explain why and how the answers will be recorded- as we go through if anything is brought up or if it seems someone is hesitant to answer I ask if there's anything they'd like to ask, if they want to not answer that's equally fine. It's something we have to make endeavours to complete, but it's only one layer of identifying what support will be of benefit to offer (we do continuity of care which helps this). To be honest never had anyone say they felt uncomfortable with the set up, would love additional time at each appointment to be able to take time to go through them but it's not how it works unfortunately, there's a lot to get done in a small amount of time and no leeway- we already routinely stay an hour plus late after shifts. Just my experience but it's absolutely helped a fair amount of women in my care get support for a variety of things, from priority housing to accessing support for DV and MH. I'd also encourage anyone to give their input though if they didn't like them or want a response on why and how the data is handled etc.

I don't agree either that people leave because of patients, but I suppose when you're at breaking point and people are complaining about something that in the scheme of what you deal with is small it can be disheartening. It is important though to remember that although it's business as usual for us, for a woman it's a big thing. I am considering leaving because the system is crumbling at a quick pace and the work life balance is just not sustainable for much longer- I am genuinely scared at when the exodus will end and what state maternity services will be in. Its such a shame as it is an absolute privilege to work as a midwife in my opinion, but services have been eroded beyond recognition.

[quote TheNameOfTheRoses]**@Dysco, why it that you and @flipflopjump seem to think that it’s ok for MW (or any HCP) to ask questions wo explaining why first. To ask people to go on the scale Wo explain the context etc…

What is or hard about explaining first and foremost?

Asi said before, as a HCP, I would never treat my patients like this. I first explain why we are doing certain things, then we do them when questions have been answered. Because at a first appointment, the one thing you want to do is create trust.

Instead it feels like you think your role is to fill paperwork and if people aren’t happy, the responsibility is all theirs to either ask questions at the right time or at the right person - god forbid that a woman ask you what’s the point if those questions that have been set up by the trust![/quote]
How much time do you think there is for these appointments if someone did ask I'd have explained by the way, but it would have meant staying at the end of the day to catch up- if everyone did everyday would be putting shedloads of unpaid overtime in, so no thanks, sorry.

@PlasticCupPolitics

Can you honestly, hand on heart, not see the relevance of these questions? You keep referring to them as not being “medically relevant” - having a baby is wildly different to popping into hospital for surgery. They are looking at the bigger picture.

Your first point of contact (if no previous children) is Midwifery, they are essentially then a gateway for referral making if necessary, to a range of agencies, to ensure you get the correct support (medically and otherwise) throughout pregnancy and beyond.

They are checking to see that you are:

A. Capable of looking after a baby
B. Well supported
C. Financially stable/signposted to benefits appropriately
D. Not in an abusive relationship of any sort

You’re in for a shock if you let the Health Visitor come round for their antenatal visit!

Congratulations though [fowers]

Ref Health visitor - they have zero social filters and focus more on the peripheral stuff than any health related stuff. They missed a series of medical red flags with my first born that nearly killed him - because they were more interested in a birth mark that “might have been a bruise” but was very obviously a birth mark. I refused to have them anywhere near me with my second. Remember these are services that you can pick and choose which you take up. Learn as much as you can whilst pregnant, use a support network around you and if you choose to stick with the various services the NHS offers, be assertive and stand up for yourself and your LO. Good luck with everything

Do the midwives on here think there was anything much to complain about 25/30 years ago because all I heard when I was pg then was how overworked they were. When ds1 was born there were more more midwives than patients on the labour and post natal wards. TBF it was Christmas day. However, the day after boxing day the Bounty Lady came and despite the hate on MNet she was literally the only person who said "what a lovely baby, it's tough isn't it, I remember when mine were born.

When I was born, normal delivery, my mother was in hospital for 8 days and was nursed in that time. No stitches, fast labour, nobody criticised her for using bottles.

@Parker231 I think Hyacinth would have looked up to the consultants. They are and were my equals darling.

@flipflopjump - my dc are 27 and 23 now. It was very much Mr and Miss for the consultants. In more recent times, orthopaedics, my local hospital is very much surgeons are more equal than humans "Animal Farm" style. I have had to deal with F1s in A&E who think they can address me as imbecilic because I'm now 61. Well sorry but it doesn't wash.

Healthcare professional here but not midwife.

The way you have suggested phrasing the questions instead are long and wordy. If you have poor language skills or are slow to process then you won't answer accurately. Also, been told there is all this extra stuff we are going to do with you/make you do is overwhelming so the offer of that is too much so you say no. And a direct offer of help is often rejected. People don't want to admit they are struggling. So if you ask me if I am at risk of losing my house and need support with that and I say yes, then I might think that someone will take my baby when they're born. I might think that they assume I'm an unfit mother that I can't keep a roof over my head. So I say no, I don't need help, and then you've missed that risk. But if someone asks me if I rent my house and I say yes then I don't feel judged and I answer honestly and the healthcare professional is aware there may be a risk so can dig a bit deeper or be prepared to later. The way a patient answers a question can tell you a lot. If I ask about a partner and you look worried or he gives you a look before you answer then that would be a warning that something more might be at play. We never ask to be nosy. We honestly do not have time for that.

Also, depending on your trust and processes it may be that the midwife was working off an online system and can see all your medical history already. Or however the referral system works the GP might have already sent them all that.

@CanIJustHaveAWord

When I was having my first two one of the questions was 'is the father a blood relative' 😮

In some cultures, it is the norm for extended family to marry. This may increase the risk of birth defects. Midwives can’t just decide by looking at someone whether they are married to a second or third cousin. That’s why they ask this question to everyone.

FWIW, my very white middle class godparents found out that they were second cousins at their wedding. They were referred to fetal medicine for extra scans and some genetic testing.

Yes, YABU. The questions asked aren’t set out by the trust. Green maternity notes are national notes and used in almost every trust in England.
Questions asked at booking are more about checking what social support you may need. It isn’t like having another medical assessment or attending hospital for an operation. They are trying to support you through 9 months of pregnancy, birth and the neonatal period. Of course they will ask questions about your partner, you will be seen as a family unit, not in isolation. Loads of work has been done over the years around involving dads more in process. The questions are asked for data collection but also to identify any possible areas where further support may be needed.

Some would consider these intrusive. There is a duty to safeguard all such data, and make it non identifiable. Are they doing a research project? In which case where's the consent. What are they going to do with the data? Sell it? Who has access to this data? The clinicians? The cleaners? How will the data be securely stored? This really isn't good enough.

The point is being missed. There are strict laws governing the collection, storage, and use of data. Are they being followed? You might ask before answering these very personal intrusive questions. What will it be used for? How will it be safeguarded? Who will use it? Not everybody has our best interests at heart.

How much time do you think there is for these appointments

I don’t know but it seems that @Vexed80 has managed to do that in one sentence. I’d add another about consent re data collection.
That’s what? 1 minute, maybe 2?

Then everyone knows what it is for and you can move on instead of letting women think that this first appointment is all about them and the baby and starting to get the ball rolling to ensure a safe pregnancy as well as adequate health support during those 8 months.

Why do you think all women are supposed to know all that?

If they were no one on this thread would ever have been annoyed by those questions. Including the OP.

@Vexed80 where do you get looking after the mother from 9 months of pregnancy from? My booking appointments were at 12 weeks (one at 14 because the Trust lost the referral). It's 6 months at most and when I was pg involved a GP appointment just to be referred.

It would be wonderful if @flipflopjump would answer at least one of my questions.

But there's no point asking all these questions if it then doesn't result in any support or anything different happening for you during pregnancy and postnatal?! I was expecting the MH Qs and disclosed (it isn't something I hide) but that resulted in no support for that, and wasn't taken into account by the way the midwives acted later on (trying to force me to birth in the MLU which wasn't what I wanted, then piling on the pressure to breastfeed despite my medical conditions). Unsurprisingly, I ended up with severe PND as a result of all that.

And, yes, I did follow up with a complaint, which took months to be acknowledged. It eventually ended up with one midwife facing disciplinary action.

I would fine the level of education as insulting. I only have G C, S, E's and not the greatest, but I am dyslexic and the help I was getting was pulled just before I got to year 10.
I did get a Grade C in child development, but definitely take offence, when people look at the fact I didn't go to college or university. As I was bullied at lot at school and was terrified it would be worse at college. I have looked at uni, but yes I don't qualify due to my grades, my diploma I did, was a waste of paper, because my maths isn't great, which is caused by my dyslexia.

Having a child is not purely a personal decision — it is also a decision which has social implications. There are so many irresponsible parents who give birth without planning the future of their child and with no regard to the environment they could provide for the child. In this case, the child is both a direct and indirect liability to the whole society and tax payers. I wish they ask these questions to every prospective parent but before the child is conceived. People should earn a licence to be able to parent — just like driving or practicing an occupation such as teaching or medical consulting. Parenting is taken too lightly in our world but this must change at some point as the implications are too costly for societies and states.

I'm fairly sure I was asked about when I left education rather than whether I had a degree. That seems like a better question to me, as it would highlight if someone left school at 14 etc.

The problem with your suggested question about dyslexia is that a lot of people who would find complex texts difficult don't have diagnosed dyslexia. Whether people have "difficulties with reading" is also quite subjective, and people are likely to say no even if they do. I remember on one of those TV shows about adults learning to read, someone said he'd always claim to have forgotten his glasses instead of admitting he was illiterate. "What age did you leave school?" or "do you have a degree?" are questions with more concrete answers, so I expect people are more likely to give accurate answers.

A few people have said pregnancy is different to surgery etc. Of course that's true, but I was definitely asked non-medical questions before I had an operation with a long recovery time, e.g. do I work, does my work give sick pay, do I live in a house/flat, does my partner work, do I have DC or pets. I didn't assume the nurse was judging me, but that she was checking my care needs: the help that I'd need if I lived alone in a 3 storey house with 4 dogs would be different to a single-storey flat with a caring partner.

If you have a partner who is not allowed to see their children, this may mean this partner is a risk to your child.

@toomuchlaundry you do realise when your DC is at school there will be things written about them on the school safeguarding database, some of which may seem trivial I home educate , shocking how many people are willing to allow such state involvement with their own children even before they are born.