To say this pissed me off about my booking appointment ?

[chattycaterpillar]

I had a pregnancy booking appointment recently, and was talking to a friend about this yesterday, and she agreed this equally pissed her off about her's too, ( she had hers 12 months ago in the same NHS trust).

The actual medical questions were almost skimmed over, ( I wasn't asked if I had any medication allergies, even though I have a serious allergy to doxycycline). But the amount of nosy, social questions asked to "judge," your suitability to parent was ridiculous.

Examples on the proforma list included:

• How long have you been with your partner ? ( Yes, it is a long-term relationship so wasn't an issue for me, but my friend's child was conceived after a short fling and she didn't want to be answering exactly how long it was).

• What is your highest level qualification/ are you educated to degree level ? ( I'm educated to degree level, but interested in the medical relevance of this. Imagine getting asked that at any other medical appointment ...)

• Are you employed ? Is it full time work, what do you do for work ? What does your partner do for work ? ( Why on earth is it medically relevant what my partner does as his job ? )

• Does your partner have any other children ? ( No, but again, not medically relevant...)

• Do you own or rent your property ? ( Why, do you want to take a look at my mortgage deeds....)

Seemed to be a lot more interested in asking a list of nosy, intrusive questions than either a) a serious physical health condition I have that could impact the birth, or b) my medication allergies.

I'm just trying to work out in what other medical scenario this would be appropriate...

Not sure on the degree question but they'll be some logic, probably something to do with not being in poverty. Your ability to be independent and raise the baby.
The same reasons lots of employers want people with degrees but aren't fussed what the degree is in.

Those questions are all about looking out for the baby potentially 'at risk'. Some baby's are never allowed to go home with the mother.

The booking appointment is at 3 mths, so 6 mths to go, if the mother is in a violent relationship and flags are waved at that appointment it gives time to try and get mother out of that relationship.

The home owner question is probably related to if you own its a different set of issues to being able to walk away from a dodgy relationship in a rental.

@Phineyj

I actually tried the 'pay for it yourself and avoid it' option in desperation, as my local trust kept appearing on lists of worst maternity providers in the UK, the local papers were full of horror stories and the way they handled the prenatal appointments was threatening my job. It's not actually possible to opt out unless you've got squillions. The NHS dominates the whole of the system.

It does. And sadly most of the UK population cannot grasp how exceptional the NHS is and are determined to moan and moan until it is destroyed.

When it’s gone, nobody will complain about council tax bills any more - medical insurance costs will dwarf that. At the moment the NHS subsidises everything including supposedly ‘private’ healthcare. The moment anything goes wrong or patients become seriously unwell in the private sector they can be (and are) transferred into NHS hospitals where the expensive part is picked up by the taxpayer.

Pregnant women and their children are at huge risk of abuse by the men in the mothers life. It is the job of those caring for her to at least attempt to detect those at highest risk and provide them with information that might save their or their children’s lives. Many of the women at risk do not believe they are at risk. Asking women if there are any issues won’t reveal much because more are either in denial or genuinely can’t see the situation they are in for what it is. But there is plenty of data from many many previous women that tells midwives what the red flags are and they ask questions to get to that information. If you are so sure you aren’t at risk then just answer the questions and move on.

However methinks the ladies doth protest too much here and so I imagine many who are railing against the system are the very people the midwives are trying to identify; the women who are in denial or cannot acknowledge their situation despite clear red flags.

What has having a degree got to do with raising a child and being a good parent. What do they take from it if you say you haven’t got any qualifications. Are they going to pass your details on to the local college for some free courses so you can get a degree or does it mean they will look at you and raise a red flag that you are not qualified to look after a child.

Can you honestly not see the potentially very different needs between a degree-educated professional and a woman who left school with three GCSEs? It isn't a value judgment. It's just fact.

Agreeed are you saying that if you can't afford to opt out, then you aren't entitled to tact and politeness from your HCP? That you aren't entitled to give informed consent?
And if these questions are so bloody important, being rich shouldn't exempt you from answering them. There are plenty of wealthy women in domestically violent relationships - money, or lack of it, isn't always a key factor in why a woman doesn't leave these relationships. Rich people can abuse kids too - having a degree doesn't = better life.

Annette objecting to the approach used by these HCP really isn't about being the sort of women the HCP are attempting to target - that's a lazy and reductive pov. I did not meet any of their 'red flag' situations. However the approach from my hv made me feel judged in my own home and really uncomfortable, at a time when my hormones were all over the place. The stupid woman could have actually triggered PND with her clunky questioning and general rudeness. I'd never have another hv based on that experience. So they are, in effect, causing the opposite of what they want by being so bad at their jobs.

Another thing to keep in mind is that seeing a hv is a service offered, not an obligation. If you were married to an abuser he'd probably just stop you seeing one. Since it isn't obligatory what could social services do - they aren't going to swoop in and investigate a family turning down something they aren't obliged to use, since plenty of people don't need a hv for a variety of reasons, that don't have anything to do with hiding worrisome behaviour.

My parents left school with no formal qualifications - they've been the best and most loving parents a child could wish for. My cousins dad had a degree and ran his own company - didn't stop him from hitting her mum.
Now I know you are going to say plural of anecdote isn't data but if these questions are being asked to individuals on the grounds that they can target said individuals for additional help, then maybe the wrong questions are being asked.

I think I’ve been more than clear with my point of view. I know how important the questions are.
That’s why I think that they should be asked.
If people don’t want to answer then they can pay privately.
Or they can tell their midwife they refuse to answer.
That’s my view.
And I totally agree that rich women are at risk too. But if they want to pay and go private or if some people want to refuse to answer them that is up to them.
What I find distasteful is adult women moaning ans whinging about questions that are there to identify the most vulnerable. They are there to build a full picture.
Of course one question alone about qualifications or housing alone won’t indicate someone is vulnerable. Like that same question won’t confirm they will be a good parent. But knowing information about someone helps build a picture that may indicate they need more support.

What I disagree with is people moaning about questions that can help other people.
Your options are answer and accept that even if it won’t help you it helps them identify people who are at risk - which may be you. Perhaps you don’t recognise the signs yourself
Tell your midwife you don’t want to answer.
Or go private.

As for the tact and politeness, my midwife was always polite even if usually running late. She always apologised for it.
If she wasn’t polite I wouldn’t have raised that as a seperate issue.
Not moaned about being asked questions that as I have repeatedly said save lives.

The mother’s education level is the biggest predictor of a child’s educational success. It also has an measurable impact on a child’s cognitive skills, health and well-being. For example, children whose mothers have a low education level are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.

@Elisheva wow I didn't know that.

I knew mother's education level played a part in reducing the number of children she would have on average. The higher educated the less children.

Yes, maternal education is a really important indicator of loads of things. A mother with poor education is more likely to have a baby with a low birth-weight for example.
It is only an indicator or course, but it’s one of the really important questions that a midwife asks.

If you are educated, then you value education and want that for your own children. It's your 'norm'.
Equally, if you are not educated but are intelligent, then you also want a good education for your children, since education offers opportunities. It might be that you don't have the means to access it though.

Education tends to equal more money, so I'm not surprised that it results in better wellbeing. It's the difference between being able to buy good food or supplement your child's education with private tuition and not.
And I'd assume that educated women are in careers rather than jobs and therefore have fewer children, since children do disturb career progression and good childcare is expensive.
Being a good parent is about attitude and prioritising your children's needs with the money you have. I'm not totally convinced these questions identify attitude, only financial status. I think they need refining, personally.

@chattycaterpillar

Oh and they also wanted to know my partner's date of birth. Why ?! I've been for surgery before under anesthetic and they've never asked that. My partner and I are the same age, (29), but my friend sad it's for them to have a nosy at unsuitable age gaps.....but if i'd have said my partner was 60, what would they actually be able to do ?!

aren't some medical conditions higher risk for children of geriatric parents?

The asking about education level might seem weird or intrusive, but literacy levels vary so hugely.

My dh (early 40s) left school at 14 or so with no qualifications and is, at best, functionally literate. He has friends who cannot read and write. Most of his family have the same level of education. They can navigate Facebook but wouldn't research anything beyond that. If he was a pregnant woman, he'd have relied on his family's advice about baby rearing, safe sleep, weaning etc, which would have been out of date and probably dangerous.

The general consensus is "mum knows best", even when that involves a child not strapped into a car seat properly, cot bumpers and teddies in with a newborn to sleep, put down on the front, and personalised dummy cords bought off ebay that are basically a fancy noose.

Offering £400 NCT classes would be daft, pamphlets would be pointless, but a couple of free sessions in the hospital or at a sure start would suit and not be stressful.

My cousin was flagged up as being a DV victim and received extra HV care. She wasn't signed off until her partner had decided that crying babies weren't his thing and moved out at about 7w PP.

I know a lady who is married to her first cousin and has buried five of her babies as a result of a genetic mutation.

Just because something doesn't pertain to you personally, doesn't mean It not useful.

@Elisheva

The mother’s education level is the biggest predictor of a child’s educational success. It also has an measurable impact on a child’s cognitive skills, health and well-being. For example, children whose mothers have a low education level are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.

This is exactly what I mean. You actually think that for every academically low achieving mother that gets flagged there is an ADHD test for their child..

Take a look on the SEN board and you will find getting a test for dyslexia/dysgraphia/ADHD etc either needs a NT mother with a degree or to be very very lucky that they come across a teacher who knows the signs and the school are willing to refer them to be tested

You do realise that the reason behind ADHD in most cases is genetic.
It isn’t that the mother is just thick or preferred to go out and party rather than study to gain a degree but more to do with the fact the mother also has undiagnosed ADHD/dyslexia etc themselves and their mother was the same etc etc

I was diagnosed last year with ADHD. Looking back I see ADHD in every generation of my family. Even the ones who were dead long before I was born but were spoken about frequently

It isn’t that the mother is just thick or preferred to go out and party rather than study to gain a degree
I don’t think that anybody is saying it is?
The OP wanted to know why the midwife asked about her level of education, and I am explaining that there is a correlation between maternal education and different outcomes for the child.
Educational outcomes may not be as relevant for a midwife, but likelihood of a low birthweight, good maternal diet, and things like use of alcohol/smoking are.
It’s just an indicator of things that the midwife might need to be aware of.

FourLittleStars
Being functionally illiterate doesn’t mean you don’t want to know how to do things.

Not everything is written down to wade through if you struggle with literacy

YouTube etc can be referred to if you don’t know stuff or just want to see what alternative ways there are of doing anything.

I failed Functional English but can still read and write and have a wide knowledge of a variety of random stuff. I know I struggle with a lot of written instructions sometimes so when I get to a bit where I just don’t get then YouTube/Pinterest etc does help
Ds has struggled and failed to get an. English qualification and only has one GCSE
In the past year he has gained an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of camper van prices and how to renovate the interior
Learned Spanish for 14 hours per day for 6 weeks
Learned about Bitcoin and stock trading and had now decided to try forex and currency trading which he is finding complicated.
Learned how to build a computer and done a stint as a manager of a large carpark

Just because you struggle academically and have a learning difficulty doesn’t mean that you don’t have a thirst for knowledge.

Not wanting to learn new things isn’t the preserve of those who are functionally illiterate. I have come across many many highly educated people who have not a clue about anything outside their own lives.

Asking about smoking, drinking, diet is completely reasonable. These are health questions which have a direct impact on that particular woman and her baby. Whether she owns a dishwasher, not so much.

Bet we'd get red flagged if we refused to answer. I really resent being asked such questions and want to tell them to bog off.

but likelihood of a low birthweight, good maternal diet, and things like use of alcohol/smoking are.

In that case you ask about alcohol use, diet etc… not of the person is degree educated.
It just smacks of uneducated people are thick and will do stupid things whereas degree educated women are sensible and unlikely to harm their child.
Right oh… that might actually be the best way to miss problems just because mum is well educated…..

I failed Functional English
Ds has struggled and failed to get an English qualification and only has one GCSE

I’m not saying I necessarily agree with the questions, the OP said that she doesn’t see the relevance, I’m just pointing out how the question could possibly be relevant.

If the reason the father doesn't see his other children is because he's abusive then it's very relevant

@Elisheva

The mother’s education level is the biggest predictor of a child’s educational success. It also has an measurable impact on a child’s cognitive skills, health and well-being. For example, children whose mothers have a low education level are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.

But that has no relation with the pregnancy itself. That would be good information for a HV, sure start centre (so they still even exist?) etc…

I also think it creates a blind spot when it comes to new mums.
I had bad PND and I’d say I was actually a risk to my baby at one point. But neither the GP nor the HV made any effort around that. I’m well educated, intelligent whatever so I suspect they all assumed I would do the right thing because I had all the knowledge. This was wrong.
I had no idea what PND was. I learnt about it months after. I didn’t dare asking for more help out of fear that my baby would be taken away (Yep very similar ideas than some so called less educated women could have). I had no support around me, Incl DH. Because despite being degree educated, he also had no idea what PND was. And the word depression just made think i needed to just get over it.
And you know what? The same thing happened again when I had AND with my second…. Same doctor, same reaction and no support what so ever.

What should be happening is that the MW is treating/looking after the person in front of them.
Adding some layers of ‘this person is educated/not educated therefore will require more/less support’ is a lazy way of looking after patients. It stops them from seeing the person in front of them and concentrate only on ‘red flags’ that might or might not be relevant to that particular woman.

If you have depression, why do you think you just need to get over it. That isn’t usually how depression works.

If those questions bother you, be glad you didn't need fertility treatment. Then you need to complete a welfare of the child form.

Haven't read the full thread but have seen a few people speculate why the degree question is there. It's because lower educational level is a risk factor for poor pregnancy and birth outcomes.