Dogs… To think it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal breed or not?!

[MsWalterMitty]

Just read about the recent child death in St Helen’s. It’s so awful!

The breed of dog has been released and it turns out it’s not an illegal breed. It’s called an American Bully XL, never heard of it so I googled it, even though I had an idea what it might look like due to its name.

Surely, whether it’s legal or not, this dog seems like a really stupid choice for a family!

Controlling the size/shape/weight of the dogs people can own doesn't work. We know, we've tried that for 30 odd years and the problem has not gone away.

Educating people on safe, sensible dog ownership MIGHT help - educating people on why buying a dog to make loads of money studding it out (thats why the kids dad bought the dog) isn't a smart idea - on why understanding dog behaviour (rather than watching dogs behaving badly or cesar millan and treating dogs badly as a result) is important might help.

Generally getting across to the public that owning a dog is a serious consideration NOT something you do on a whim, because you want your mates to think you're double hard, because you want a money making machine, because you think they're cute etc etc...

But that needs to start young, that sort of education needs to start in secondary school if not earlier - I highly doubt I'd be a behaviour and training consultant now if I hadn't had a lifelong interest in animals and their behaviour from a young age!

It has to start with formal education because it is not something most people (and certainly, nto something ANY of the people involved in dog related deaths) think they need to know, so its not information they will seek out!

@WaspRelatedEmergency

A 3 month old baby was killed this month in a woodland in Lincolnshire. The parents were walking their huskies and one of the dogs got loose and killed her. This happened late at night which seems a strange time to be dog walking. These parents were with their baby and she wasn't safe from the dogs. I can't bear to think what those children went through. Is it naivety, ignorance or denial that makes people think their dog would never hurt someone?

There's lots of different reasons for late night dog walking. Sometimes it will be because someone works odd hours - though that seems less plausible when the whole family have gone out together.

Sometimes it's because they're trying to avoid meeting other people or dogs because they know their dog has issues with them - and that's a responsible course of action when you have such a dog.

I'll absolutely guarantee this wasn't the first time the dog had shown concerning behaviour towards the baby though. It would be interesting to know if they'd done anything to address this.

@WiddlinDiddling
Unfortunately lots of people don’t want to be taught anything. They want a huge toy, status symbol, they want to scare people away. No amount of education will help. There is no reason to have this breed as a pet apart from being impressed of how strong and dangerous it is. But that’s exactly the point. These parents could choose any other breed. I don’t believe they didn’t know that it can attack. They knew exactly that it can and even parental instincts didn’t outweigh their sick determination to look “cool”. You can’t educate them. Education doesn’t hurt but how do you educate children on this exactly? We are teaching to drink responsibly, but we all know it doesn’t exactly help much. We don’t need long term plans, we need urgent ways of dealing with this, education can go along with this.

I don't think we can rely on education. Sorry to be blunt but the problem is not people that can be educated. We are talking about people that can't or won't be educated - they know best, "an won't take no shit from no-one".

Speed limits, cameras and fines don't stop some people from speeding but it puts most of us off. If people were just asked nicely not to go above 30 here and 50 there, do you think everyone would abide by that?

You can only trust people to use common sense if they have it in the first place. These people with these dangerous dogs don't have common sense and much like you wouldn't trust them with access to your bank account, they should be trusted with a gun or any kind of dog.

At some point unless something harsher is brought in, we'll all pay by everyone losing the privilege of dog ownership.

Shouldn't be trusted with any kind of dog or gun 🙄

I got injured by a rather exuberant, over excited staffie cross (not sure what he was crossed with).
He didn’t bite but didn’t know his own strength and caused quite a few injuries being “playful”.
I am a broad, 5ft 5 not-very-slim adult, wouldn’t have liked to think what might have happened if a child was there. :( It happened so quickly too.

Also I would be wary of mislabeled dogs. A lot of dogs are "lab crosses" who maybe had a Labrador as a great-grandparents. Sometimes this is done for insurance purposes to to get around bans at dogs parks etc, particularly in the United States where pit bulls are legal but often not allowed in local areas.

Even on @EvilGoldfish 's thread about her puppy that turned out to be part pit bull, many posters were telling her to claim it was a lab mix.

Sometimes I see dogs responsible for bites and it's just???

For example, another wee baby was mauled to death in the United States recently. Apparently by a Great Pyrenees (Pyrenean Mountain Dog) mix. Does this look like it's half Great Pyrenees to you?

@Mickarooni

I got injured by a rather exuberant, over excited staffie cross (not sure what he was crossed with). He didn’t bite but didn’t know his own strength and caused quite a few injuries being “playful”. I am a broad, 5ft 5 not-very-slim adult, wouldn’t have liked to think what might have happened if a child was there. :( It happened so quickly too.

I'm guessing he jumped up and scratched or something? You don't state the nature of the injuries so I'm guessing you didn't break your arm or something serious.

Sounds like an undertrained overfriendly young dog who bore you no ill will. I'd be forgiving if the owners were trying to train the dog not to jump up. Dogs have the mental age of a 3-4 year old child, and there's no child in this world of that age that always behaves impeccably.

The last overexuberant staffy I met managed to inflict a bit of pain - her tail was wagging so furiously it acted rather like a whip when it caught the back of my legs... Ouch, but I couldn't be upset!

“Does this look like it's half Great Pyrenees to you?”

The thing is, it could be... mix breed dogs do not all come out looking somewhere between both parent breeds.

My current dog is a rescue where they had the whole litter, there are 2 different colours, coat length and ear set within that litter - as adults they look like very different dogs.

I’ve known a staffy cross GSD litter where all the bitches looked like crosses but the dog took nothing but size from the GSD, it just looked like a big staffy.

I’ve known lots of lurcher litters (because I grew up where they’re actually used to hunt) where you’d never have been able to tell that one parent was a full deerhound or when they added a collie in the mix some look like lurchers, some just look like collies.

So yes, some people will claim a dog is something else to pass it off as legal, but also it’s often very hard to tell what is in a mixed breed dog by looking at them.

On the argument that there's no such thing as a bad dog, only a bad upbringing...

It's like guns in America, isn't it. Guns don't kill people, people do, say some.

Is it realistic to expect that all people holding a gun licence will be a responsible owner?

How many deaths/injuries/maimings are we willing to accept?

@baglavender

On the argument that there's no such thing as a bad dog, only a bad upbringing...

It's like guns in America, isn't it. Guns don't kill people, people do, say some.

Is it realistic to expect that all people holding a gun licence will be a responsible owner?

How many deaths/injuries/maimings are we willing to accept?

But that’s literally the way gun control laws work - you make sure people who have guns are responsible people and use them only as allowed.

Guns aren’t actually banned, people have them.

I do agree that any dog can bite and that early socialisation and bite inhibition work is essential to raise a young dog adequately I would disagree that these are suitable dogs to ever live with young children. Bull breeds have been literally bred for strength and fighting. They have exceptionally strong jaws which would be almost impossible to open by a person when they are biting. So yes, obviously smaller dogs can and do bite and if they get the wrong place on a child could unfortunately cause catastrophic damage but they will be easier to remove while biting. A bully breed is just not going to be able to removed as easily if at all. I feel heartedly sorry for both the young child and the parents but I definitely agree that some dogs are banned in this country. This is my viewpoint as someone who has worked with dogs in various capacities all my working life.

@tabulahrasa
And it works really well… not

I mean licenses. Lots of lives lost. I’m happy it’s not allowed in the UK

regardless of the legality of the breed, for me it spoke volumes that after the incident the police were trying to trace the people that the family had acquired the dog from.
They'd had the dog for a matter of weeks - it doesn't scream "reputable breeder"

The last overexuberant staffy I met managed to inflict a bit of pain - her tail was wagging so furiously it acted rather like a whip when it caught the back of my legs... Ouch, but I couldn't be upset!
Reminded me of my sisters cross breed rescue staffie (no idea of what the "crossed" bit was) he used to get so excited If I stayed over, he'd forget, and when I emerged in the morning - despite being very well trained, the biggest danger was a (very painful) headbut at just above knee level when he spotted me coming downstairs. He was adorable though.

@Dontcallmebabylalala

I mean licenses. Lots of lives lost. I’m happy it’s not allowed in the UK

I mean in the U.K. - guns aren’t banned, plenty of people have them legally.

They'd had the dog for a matter of weeks - it doesn't scream "reputable breeder"

Absolutely not a reputable breeder or previous responsible owner. If a breeder won't take a young dog with issues back, that's a massive red flag for me. When we got our dog, we signed a contract to say that our dog must go back to the breeder if we became unable to look after her and our chosen people could not take her. Our breeder is always happy to help, two years down the line we still see them and I put questions to them often. Can't imagine the breeders of these dogs are overly keen to keep in touch..

@tabulahrasa
But the laws are different in the UK and US? I might have worded it wrong, but in the UK you only can have one if you have a valid reason.
There are NO reasons for a person to have an XL as a pet. “I like them” doesn’t sound like a reason to me.

@user3837313202

”I'm guessing he jumped up and scratched or something? You don't state the nature of the injuries so I'm guessing you didn't break your arm or something serious.”

I had a deep scratches that bled. He also (playfully!) launched at me head as I was sitting. I had neck pain and stiffness for weeks after. I needed physio. My point is that I’m an adult and a playful big dog did hurt me. I wouldn’t have a dog of that strength around a child, even well trained, and I cannot imagine thinking it’s sensible even if you are in the same room. He absolutely wasn’t a bad natured dog, just very over excited and very strong. He was around 3 years old if I recall correctly, not a puppy but not an older dog either.

[quote Dontcallmebabylalala]@tabulahrasa
But the laws are different in the UK and US? I might have worded it wrong, but in the UK you only can have one if you have a valid reason.
There are NO reasons for a person to have an XL as a pet. “I like them” doesn’t sound like a reason to me.[/quote]
Well yes, but joining a gun club is a valid reason, or sports like clay pigeons - that is basically, because I like them.

And licensing people to have them works well, doing similar with dogs would be a lot more effective than just adding more breeds to the dog laws we already have.

Itshould be illegal to keep a pet that is capable of killing a child. Working animals fine, kept on farms or what have you. Highly trained assistance dogs with the correct paperwork, fine but it shouldn't be possible to buy a lethal animal off the Internet and bring it into a family home. Just like guns.

The whole banning breed thing take the Staffy, in 2021 it was voted the UK most popular dog. There is literally hundreds of thousands of Staffies living happily in homes in the UK as loving pets.

You are saying a breed should be banned because of the odd rouge dog which most likely has come from some for of abuse or neglect, or serious lack of training or owned by a complete idiot.

You have to remember dogs are domesticated animals and most will live happily in homes with humans. Control is what's needed, dogs need to be licensed in some way that controls idiots from owning them.

Also some of the deaths that have occurred aren't dog attacks as such if you actually read details, owners have taken fits and the dogs have tried to wake them by scratching and clawing at owners face. So they haven't actually attacked them, tried to wake them up.

@WindyKnickers

You could include most dog breeds in that category. Horses are also capable of killing a child. Cats pose some danger to babies if they curl up on top of them. Heck, a bite from a hamster could prove fatal if it gets infected and medical attention isn't sought quickly enough. Yes, precautions do need to be taken, such as not buying dogs if the Internet (that's sheer lunacy), getting a dog breed suitable for your family etc but suggesting that entire breeds should be banned as pets due to a few rogue individuals is an overreaction.

You could include most dog breeds in that category. Horses are also capable of killing a child. Cats pose some danger to babies if they curl up on top of them. Heck, a bite from a hamster could prove fatal if it gets infected and medical attention isn't sought quickly enough. Yes, precautions do need to be taken, such as not buying dogs if the Internet (that's sheer lunacy), getting a dog breed suitable for your family etc but suggesting that entire breeds should be banned as pets due to a few rogue individuals is an overreaction.

At last some common sense being spoken..

If people matched the breed with the home they can provide then far less dogs would be harming kids

SBT - highly intelligent, high energy - don't get one unless you can offer it a outlet for energetic nature - canicross / agility etc

Labs and Spaniels - dog responsible for a vast number of facial injuries to kids - Do NOT get one unless you can work it through gun dog training or agility.

If all you can offer is 2 walks a day and a family life then please only get a dog bred for this - Lap dogs - Pug , KCCS etc