To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

If Jewish people aren't a race and can't therefore suffer racism, why was Whoopi Goldberg forced to apologise for saying the Holocaust wasn't about race?

@VladmirsPoutine - when I talked to a person of colour about this, she said that it helps if white people use their privilege to amplify the voices of POC rather than speak for them.

@LaurieFairyCake

Very tolerant compared to majority of other countries

Still racist as fuck

Basically this

All I am saying is that to my DC, I hope skin colour is as interesting as hair colour and they make no judgment based on it. Unlike me who feels the need to treat black people extremely carefully for fear of being racist (something learnt from the media).

That isn't what you said though. You said that you hoped they would see it as unusual. Do you honestly not see the difference? Words matter. You are backtracking and honestly, it comes off very much "don't see colour" which has it's own issues attached to it.

Never mind though. Its only one black child in 30 that will have to bear the brunt either way. No biggie.

The you can't be white and experience racism argument doesn't go anywhere because people are using different definitions of racism so won't agree.

One is based on the idea of power and that in any situation a white person always has more power than a black person.
That is an absurd absolutist claim. Power in any interaction may be based in many factors.
It's also a damagingly bleak fatalistic message to give to children.
That they can never have the power.
And as it's fatalistic about race, racist.

The other definition is any discrimination based on perceived race. Which means anyone can do it and anyone can experience it.
Agreeing collectively this is wrong and we want to work together to reduce it (it won't ever be eradicated it's too deep a human instinct) seems a much more positive and unifying message.

Depends what you want how you define it.
But not much point arguing when you're using different definitions.

I don't know if you can say that the country is racist, but definitely there is racism.
Having lived in different countries and travelled all over the world, I will say that all countries have racism problem. All of them, to different degrees, just like all countries have huge issues with sexism. We are not unique in this, but being a very diverse country, it is more discussed, as it should be.

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

All I am saying is that to my DC, I hope skin colour is as interesting as hair colour and they make no judgment based on it. Unlike me who feels the need to treat black people extremely carefully for fear of being racist (something learnt from the media).

That isn't what you said though. You said that you hoped they would see it as unusual. Do you honestly not see the difference? Words matter. You are backtracking and honestly, it comes off very much "don't see colour" which has it's own issues attached to it.

Never mind though. Its only one black child in 30 that will have to bear the brunt either way. No biggie.

But that is what I meant.

There undoubtedly is racism and it would be stupid to deny it.

Since BLM, most companies I know are doing a huge push to get more diverse staff and to widen access. Hopefully this will help. It is 'white savour', it is 'tokenism' about wanting a visibly diverse staff but at least it is helping social mobility and integration.

One downside is that there is more focus on skin colour and ethnicity than I have ever known. I have mixed feelings about this. I try and avoid micro aggressions etc but being conscious of difference is not always good for integration.

To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

A minority of people in the UK are out and out racist. The majority of people are like human beings everywhere around the world and when they encounter someone who is in some way 'different' from themselves, make unconscious assumptions about that person, and some of those assumptions are racist, albeit not intentionally so. I would hope that I, and many other British people, try to notice when I make such assumptions and challenge myself to think differently.

DandyMandy, a country that treats Irish travellers in the way that they are and where people still honestly believe you can't be fully Irish if you weren't born in Ireland has a long, long way to go. I ❤ my country, but it is far from perfect and it hasn't historically treated other victims of prejudice well.That's the point I'm making. It's not about shouting anyone down.

@MalagaNights

The you can't be white and experience racism argument doesn't go anywhere because people are using different definitions of racism so won't agree.

One is based on the idea of power and that in any situation a white person always has more power than a black person.
That is an absurd absolutist claim. Power in any interaction may be based in many factors.
It's also a damagingly bleak fatalistic message to give to children.
That they can never have the power.
And as it's fatalistic about race, racist.

The other definition is any discrimination based on perceived race. Which means anyone can do it and anyone can experience it.
Agreeing collectively this is wrong and we want to work together to reduce it (it won't ever be eradicated it's too deep a human instinct) seems a much more positive and unifying message.

Depends what you want how you define it.
But not much point arguing when you're using different definitions.

And what do you think the message to children was when they heard about the abuse and trauma endured by child Q?

So young children should not notice difference but at the same time not be 'colour blind'? so notice the colour but not as unusual in their context, even if it is (not sure how you'd program kids to notice difference without the category of unusual??) and understand why this difference is so historically important??

Of FFS. Talk about wanting to find fault with everything.

How about teaching young children people are different in lots of ways but we value everyone and don't tolerate any unkindness.
Now play in the sand.

And then have history, sociological and political discussion and reflection on differences and the impact at age appropriate ages as it becomes relevant.

It's as if some people want to teach kids to be racist and believe white people are bad, and black kids their lives are destined to be bad because of the bad white people.

It's grotesque.

@MalagaNights

The you can't be white and experience racism argument doesn't go anywhere because people are using different definitions of racism so won't agree.

One is based on the idea of power and that in any situation a white person always has more power than a black person.
That is an absurd absolutist claim. Power in any interaction may be based in many factors.
It's also a damagingly bleak fatalistic message to give to children.
That they can never have the power.
And as it's fatalistic about race, racist.

The other definition is any discrimination based on perceived race. Which means anyone can do it and anyone can experience it.
Agreeing collectively this is wrong and we want to work together to reduce it (it won't ever be eradicated it's too deep a human instinct) seems a much more positive and unifying message.

Depends what you want how you define it.
But not much point arguing when you're using different definitions.

If we're going to discuss racism in the UK it makes sense to use the legal definition.

This might be of interest: www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

Perhaps you haven’t been abroad but if you visit France you will find they are significantly more racist than the UK. Have you any idea how Australians treat Aboriginals? But don’t let that get in the way of your UK bashing. Virtue-signal received.

@CremeEggThief

DandyMandy, a country that treats Irish travellers in the way that they are and where people still honestly believe you can't be fully Irish if you weren't born in Ireland has a long, long way to go. I ❤ my country, but it is far from perfect and it hasn't historically treated other victims of prejudice well.That's the point I'm making. It's not about shouting anyone down.

That makes no sense. How can you be Irish if you weren't born in Ireland?? I have relatives who were born in England but have Irish parents. Guess what? I and other people class them as English with Irish heritage. That's it. It's not hard to work out, but I believe you are probably a self hater who is desperate for the approval of the English. There are a lot of you around. I love my country and will always defend it. We are victims of oppression and usually victims of oppression can be guilty of prejudice towards others. It doesn't mean anti-Irish hatred should be acceptable.

One is based on the idea of power and that in any situation a white person always has more power than a black person.

It's based on the reality of structural racism where white people benefit from power structures that have existed for hundreds of years in a way that black people don't. It's not based on individual situations on a day to day basis.

I agree that multiple definitions of racism is a factor in these discussions, this thread is a perfect example of that.

And what do you think the message to children was when they heard about the abuse and trauma endured by child Q?

You'd talk about how racism manifested in this case and how vile and unacceptable it is and goes against our values.

@SockFluffInTheBath For all manner of reasons tbh. White liberals tend to be confused. They often think they are on the 'right' side of history so that allows them to do and say all manner of racist things. I have given up on explaining things to my white relatives and just call it what it is: racism but dressed up in cupcakes and a frilly dress. I cannot stand white liberals. At least you know where you stand with the KKK.

@lonelyapple

No you can't be white and suffer racism.

Plenty of Jews are white and suffer very badly from racism.

White people abroad suffer racism , they also suffer here at the hands of some poc. It's not right to say white people dont suffer racism

Of FFS. Talk about wanting to find fault with everything.

Nobody is trying to find the fault in "everything".

The statement of black skin being unusual is harmful, especially to a child on the receiving end of it.

Teaching children to simply ignore colour is not the same as teaching children to understand and embrace difference.

Diane Abbott, a Black woman MP of 30 years standing, gets more hate mail than ALL THE OTHER MPs PUT TOGETHER.

Too much. As a white British woman I can’t begin to imagine the level of it but I am not naieve enough to try to deny its a problem.

One thing the last few years has taught me though is it’s not enough to not be racist but I and others like me need to actively call it out when we see or here something racist. Too many issues have been allowed to grow because of people keeping their heads in the sand.

@KeepingAnOpenMind

Perhaps you haven’t been abroad but if you visit France you will find they are significantly more racist than the UK. Have you any idea how Australians treat Aboriginals? But don’t let that get in the way of your UK bashing. Virtue-signal received.

Your friend's husband beats her up. Yours is just emotionally and financially abusive. Is your marriage really better? Is your abuse and misery any less?

I completely agree that Australia is worse than the UK but that’s not really what the thread is about?

White supremacy continues to be a problem throughout the world. It’s not helpful to be defensive.

I have noticed that in groups of white people, racist comments are made when they think nobody is watching.

This happened to me in a WhatsApp group - a group of white women being bitchy about a POC who was asking people not to use certain terms and was trying to make others aware about cultural appropriation. It grew into a daily bitchfest. I did speak up and told them that they were offensive and then I left the group. I felt disappointed that I was the only one who would do this. It didn’t go down well and I was blocked by some of them but I would have been cowardly to say nothing.

My point is that I think white people do feel entitled to be racist among themselves.

You're wrong with a lot of your assumptions about meDandyMandy, but I am not going to waste my time debating with someone who has openly said you can't be a member of a country you weren't born in.