To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

It’s not a race to the bottom. The fact other countries are worse isn’t justification for racism here

@Sirzy

It’s not a race to the bottom. The fact other countries are worse isn’t justification for racism here

Quite.

If something in a a context occurs rarely it's unusual.

It's not a value judgement.

Being unusual in a context however can create problems as humans naturally form groups of similarity and reject difference.

That's what you focus on with kids making sure exclusion due to difference doesn't occur.

Insisting no one must admit the difference is low incident (thereby making it unusual in this context) is just pointless energy in banning the obvious.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@SockFluffInTheBath For all manner of reasons tbh. White liberals tend to be confused. They often think they are on the 'right' side of history so that allows them to do and say all manner of racist things. I have given up on explaining things to my white relatives and just call it what it is: racism but dressed up in cupcakes and a frilly dress. I cannot stand white liberals. At least you know where you stand with the KKK.[/quote]
Thank you for replying to me. I think based on that I’d not call myself a white liberal anymore. I try to just be a decent human being.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@SockFluffInTheBath For all manner of reasons tbh. White liberals tend to be confused. They often think they are on the 'right' side of history so that allows them to do and say all manner of racist things. I have given up on explaining things to my white relatives and just call it what it is: racism but dressed up in cupcakes and a frilly dress. I cannot stand white liberals. At least you know where you stand with the KKK.[/quote]
Isn’t the difference that the white liberal types discussed here don’t want to be racist but don’t understand that they are nonetheless.

As a south asian in England I definitely think the U.K. has a problem with racism. A big one. The fact that a report says there is no institutional racism in the U.K., when you can see it clearly, just underlines what an issue it is.

of course white people can suffer racism, There was an incident at my former work place a few years ago where a group of black employees were bullying and calling a white employee a very quiet man shy man lots of racially insulting names and they wouldn't allow him in the tea room at break time the poor man was sat outdoors in the rain.

Insisting no one must admit the difference is low incident (thereby making it unusual in this context) is just pointless energy in banning the obvious.

I think white liberals and many people mired in the new anti racist rhetoric, like to spend lots of pointless energy on catching people out in things that don't matter, and in doing so miss the actual really important debate about the things we could & should do to keep improving our attitude to racism, particularly for the experience of young people.

It's become like a game of catching people out, knocking people down, using the new rules as power, instead of focusing on what would really make a difference.
I think most of the anti racist approach is making things worse not better, but that doesn't matter as long as people are shamed.

*If something in a a context occurs rarely it's unusual.

It's not a value judgement.

Being unusual in a context however can create problems as humans naturally form groups of similarity and reject difference.*

This is the point I'm making. Categorising a young child as unusual based on their skin colour does harm because of this. Being rejected because of your difference to the majority never ever leaves you.

*That's what you focus on with kids making sure exclusion due to difference doesn't occur.

Insisting no one must admit the difference is low incident (thereby making it unusual in this context) is just pointless energy in banning the obvious.*

I didn't say no-one should admit the difference, I'm saying the exact opposite. This is why the colourblind theory is nonsense. It basically says that difference is a bad thing which leads to people being othered, rejected, etc etc. No small child should have to deal with that in their formative years.

@Sirzy

It’s not a race to the bottom. The fact other countries are worse isn’t justification for racism here

Indeed.

It's a very odd way to prove how good the UK is!

@bigyellowTpot

of course white people can suffer racism, There was an incident at my former work place a few years ago where a group of black employees were bullying and calling a white employee a very quiet man shy man lots of racially insulting names and they wouldn't allow him in the tea room at break time the poor man was sat outdoors in the rain.

The white man won’t have spent his whole life being judged for his appearance every time he walks into a shop or any other place.

Here's my view, fwiw as a white woman from a working class background. When I was growing up I rarely came across any kind of overt racism, and when I did it was from people who were a) arseholes and b) stupid. These people would be called out for what they were saying, generally shunned, and the instances for me are rare so I can remember specific cases. I think their racism is a cover for their own stupidity and generally being twats, they want someone to blame for their own misgivings. I find it hard to believe that working class people are more racist than middle class people, with the caveat that I haven't lived in the UK since Brexit so I don't know if that has changed. I do think middle class people virtue signal more and make a big show about being not racist, it's a cultural thing of demonstrating how progressive you are, when actually a lot of the time the ones who are most vocal are hiding a lot of guilt and shame. Covert racism I probably won't have noticed, being white, but I'm sure that this is a daily issue for most BAME/POC (sorry, don't know which term is preferred and personally don't like either of those as they sound a bit offensive to me).
My brother is married to a black woman and I remember when they had a baby my mother (who I am estranged from for many reasons) was going on about how the baby looks Mediterranean rather than mixed race, which presumably she thought was preferable. I'm no fan of Meghan Markle and I'm sure she's full of sh*t on a lot of things, but as I had seen this happen in my own family I'm sure these kinds of comments occur with other mixed race families too, although I think it's also a generational thing with the older generations being more racist, as I heard similar comments from my grandmother.
I've lived in a few different countries including the US and in my view the UK is the least racist of the lot. I've also worked with a lot of immigrants to the UK and they've said the same to me, which they certainly weren't obliged to and were outspoken people who wouldn't have just been polite!
I think there will always be work to be done in the UK on racism, as with any other country. I think we need to focus on issues in the UK, rather than transplanting American theories of racism which don't fit with our own unique history, nothing gets solved otherwise.
It's not the thread for this, but it is wrong to say that white people don't face racism. I've worked with and lived in areas with Pakistani and Middle Eastern men, and I've certainly faced racism which intersects with sexism from them, and indeed from some of the women too. I've also heard racism from these communities directed at black people.

@Itsnotover so does that make you think that incident was acceptable?

@bigyellowTpot

of course white people can suffer racism, There was an incident at my former work place a few years ago where a group of black employees were bullying and calling a white employee a very quiet man shy man lots of racially insulting names and they wouldn't allow him in the tea room at break time the poor man was sat outdoors in the rain.

You are right, of course white people can suffer racism but how likely is it? As a white person I don’t have that ongoing fear of being judged for the colour of my skin. I don’t have to worry I will not get a job, or be followed around a shop etc because of the colour of my skin. I don’t worry that I will be set upon and attacked because of the colour of my skin.

Of course it is possible that I could be the victim of racism, attacked because I am white by people that aren’t but really, is that likely to happen? I very much doubt it, and it is not something that would ever be on my radar or that I would think about.

I expect all the non white people that have experienced overt or covert racism have it on their mind fairly often.

@bigyellowTpot

of course white people can suffer racism, There was an incident at my former work place a few years ago where a group of black employees were bullying and calling a white employee a very quiet man shy man lots of racially insulting names and they wouldn't allow him in the tea room at break time the poor man was sat outdoors in the rain.

White people globally - and I use the term 'globally' intentionally; GLOBALLY - suffer racism in the exact same way that mice tend to eat cats alive. The day that white people suffer racism will be the same day you find a unicorn flying over your house.

If the question was, "is there sexism in the uk" then I think you'd find the answers to be very similar.

@bigyellowTpot Anyone can be racially abused, but it's important to understand that there are loads of types of racism, and in the U.K. often white people cannot suffer racism in the same way that black/Asian/ethnic minority people can as the framework is not in place to oppress them, there is also not the historical bias against white people in the U.K. so there is not the weight of that bearing down on them.

White people aren't used as an example to deem the whole group as something, for example, in the news you'll see the wording reflected so that it indicates every Asian/black/Muslim (I know that is a religion but to a lot of people it is synonymous with race) is like that.

White people aren't constantly asked where they come from or told to go back home. There are no serious racial slurs for white people in the U.K. with an actual strong and horrific historic racial backing to them.

It's very different and one off stories can't equate to the lived experience of the majority of black/Asian/brown/ethnic people in the U.K.

Bullying isn’t acceptable no.

I also think (again speaking as a white, British woman so happy to be corrected if I am wrong) that too often we see racism as the horrid abusive language rather than the sidewards glance or mistrust based on someone’s race. Or the institutional racism that on the whole we ignore because it’s uncomfy to think about.

If we ever want to truly tackle the issue we need to look as much at those ‘small’ say to day occurrences as much as the bigger ones we would all hopefully agree are abhorrent

But the white man in this story won’t have been subjected to behaviour like that through his whole life because he’s white. The black men on the other hand will have done because they’re black.

POC here.

Yes, the U.K. is extremely racist still. Not overtly as much now (although there have been instances in my life where I’ve been called a rag head/paki/curry muncher).

The covert micro-aggressions I’ve experienced are a million times worse than someone calling me a racist name. Because this type of racism makes me question myself: am I actually dumb? Did I come across rudely? Do I need to smile more?

I’m actually sick of being in public and someone thinking I can’t speak English, or someone trying to assert themselves over me.
Last December, I had a horrible experience with a racist shop assistant in a well known store. It took me months to get confident to go clothes shopping again. 39 years of life, and still experiencing this shit…I don’t have much confidence that my children will have racist free lives.

Finally, although MN is a great place for parents, I never post what my colour/religion is on my usual username. I’ve noticed, whenever I’ve done this, people’s tone changes, so I remain anonymous and try to carry on the fight against racism without alerting anyone that I’m actually brown.

@MalagaNights

Insisting no one must admit the difference is low incident (thereby making it unusual in this context) is just pointless energy in banning the obvious.

I think white liberals and many people mired in the new anti racist rhetoric, like to spend lots of pointless energy on catching people out in things that don't matter, and in doing so miss the actual really important debate about the things we could & should do to keep improving our attitude to racism, particularly for the experience of young people.

It's become like a game of catching people out, knocking people down, using the new rules as power, instead of focusing on what would really make a difference.
I think most of the anti racist approach is making things worse not better, but that doesn't matter as long as people are shamed.

I agree. Publicly shaming well-meaning people for using the ‘wrong’ word, particularly when that word was considered perfectly acceptable until five minutes ago, (eg ‘people of colour’ vs ‘coloured people’) is not the way to win hearts & minds.

Such a complex issue..

Do we see black people being shot in the streets, lynched, KKK meetings and people being burned in their own homes - no, not to my knowledge.

Do we have widespread 'casual' racism, institutional racism, systemic racism throughout large organisations like the NHS, the police, education.. yes. Are horrific things done as a result - yes.

I take a HUGE issue with being told none of my opinion can be valid or legitimate because I am white though - that honestly does not make me feel like engaging in discussion or much like doing my best to help others!

I have not experienced being black, I can't, I am not black.

I have experienced being judged, discriminated against, experienced verbal and physical abuse, as a result of my appearance however, many many times throughout my life, to the point where it absolutely affects what I do and where I go.

I do believe that much of my white privilege is negated by being female, by being fat and most of all, by being disabled.

I have been spat at, yelled at, told 'your type can't come in here', been turned down for jobs before they've even met me as my photo includes a full shot in my wheelchair (those are just a few examples out of many!).

Looking back across history, disabled people have been treated appallingly pretty much since records began.

We've been killed at birth, slaughtered in the millions and hundreds of thousands at various points, some within living memory - we've been denied basic human rights to reproduce, to own property, to marry, to live independently.
We've been treated as sinners, as demons, as an example to others of what may befall you if you are not god-fearing, worthy, etc etc.
We've been tortured as experiements and attempts at cure, segregated, isolated and institutionalised, again some of this within living memory.

Dr Alexis Carrell - nobel prize winner, 1935, wrote a paper suggesting that the mentally ill (which would include those with autism, adhd, depression, schizophrenia and much much more) should be disposed of via euthanasia centres, via gas chambers.

Hitler of course, estimated to have killed 275'000 disabled people under his 'Aktion T4' program. These sick and disabled people were considered 'life unworthy of life'.

The millions (potentially as many as 20 million) of witches... in fact women suffering mental illness, physical disabilities and sickness... killed in the 1500's ..

Good ole Winston Churchill, as then Home Secretary, was very much in favour of confinement, segregation and sterilisation of the disabled, considering them a threat to british society. We made him prime minster of course. Lovely.

In 1965 the UK saw the first legislation to deal with racial discrimination in the Race Relations Act - this outlawed discrimination based on colour, race, nationality or ethnicity in a public place.

It wasn't until THIRTY YEARS later, in1995 that disabled people got similar protection against discrimination.

I am not saying for one second that this is the same as racism and the history of slavery - but there are absolutely comparable elements.

So to be told I can have no valid opinion... I think you might see why my response to that is pretty angry.

Throughout history, some people have been treated extremely poorly by others. That continues in some form or other to this day, but I think the answer has to be working together, not further division and 'you can't possibly understand' - we can bloody well try!

Unlike me who feels the need to treat black people extremely carefully for fear of being racist (something learnt from the media).

I've never felt the need to treat gay people carefully, because I'm not homophobic.

If you have to treat POC people very carefully because you're worried about being racist, then the uncomfortable truth for you is that you are racist, and you really need to work on that.

Just look at who this country voted in as Prime Minister. Just read what he has written, all condoned by the winning majority of the electorate. Plus Brexit. What a racist shit show.