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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

457 replies

VladmirsPoutine · 20/03/2022 13:40

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 20/03/2022 20:42

@luxxlisbon

I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world

Uhh is it??

I think she forgot to add

"by some Brits."

LadyGnome · 20/03/2022 20:43

@sst1234

I think UK has a bigger problem with a middle class ‘white saviour syndrome’ than it does with racism. Try being a non- white person and telling a progressive white person that everything isn’t down to race. Watch the indignation. You may even be accused or being racist yourself, against your own race.
One manifestation of this that pisses me off hugely on MN is the self congratulatory liberal comments about their children being friends with asylum seekers in school etc. Asylum seekers are not badges of honour for you to show off to your friends about. They are people who are just trying to make a new life for themselves. You are not doing them a favour by being friends with them. If you like someone be friends with them for who they are not for their immigration status. DH was a refugee from a civil war when I met him i.e. had been granted full refugee status under the 1951 convention. That didn't make him special or someone who needed saving. He is just a bloke.
NC4THISS · 20/03/2022 20:43

I’d have said not but since the travesty that’s happening in Ukraine it’s a firm yes.

I was sat talking about what’s going on and it really made me think ‘this could be us’ more than any other war/attack before. Then I thought about how is this different to ISIS taking over afghan and realised it’s not any different.. then I realised, it’s because ‘they look like me’, they do similar things I do, it could be me.

My subconscious had already decided every other time I’d seen children fleeing war in Yemen/Afghanistan/insert country here that they didn’t look like me so it couldn’t happen to me therefore I cared less. How fucking awful.

It’s not just me though, it’s endemic, people are publicly showing all over Facebook the ‘good deed’ of letting a Ukrainian family stay, saying what they need.. I haven’t ever once seen that for any other war.

I’m embarrassed but rather come to this realisation now.. than not at all.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 20/03/2022 20:44

@KeepingAnOpenMind

Perhaps you haven’t been abroad but if you visit France you will find they are significantly more racist than the UK. Have you any idea how Australians treat Aboriginals? But don’t let that get in the way of your UK bashing. Virtue-signal received.
Yes, but that probably has something to do with it being a British colony - they didn't just export the criminals, they exported the systemic attitudes both at the outset and throughout the last century.
Snoozer11 · 20/03/2022 20:44

And MM was welcomed to the country with open arms. People loved her at first and were delighted to see her marry Harry. At one point they were more popular than the Cambridges.

The "Straight Outta Compton" headline was written because at the time she was living about a 15 minute drive from Compton. Not because she's mixed race.

And the "racist media". Well, yes, there were maybe 4 or 5 articles written - the same ones are trotted out all the time - that were borderline racist. But that's out if how many thousands written about her?

Sexnotgender · 20/03/2022 20:45

@LaurieFairyCake

Very tolerant compared to majority of other countries

Still racist as fuck

That’s pretty much my view.
KELLOGSspeck · 20/03/2022 20:49

@KeepingAnOpenMind your absolutely right about France I've been. Hostile is an understatement.

Snoozer11 · 20/03/2022 20:50

@NC4THISS

I’d have said not but since the travesty that’s happening in Ukraine it’s a firm yes.

I was sat talking about what’s going on and it really made me think ‘this could be us’ more than any other war/attack before. Then I thought about how is this different to ISIS taking over afghan and realised it’s not any different.. then I realised, it’s because ‘they look like me’, they do similar things I do, it could be me.

My subconscious had already decided every other time I’d seen children fleeing war in Yemen/Afghanistan/insert country here that they didn’t look like me so it couldn’t happen to me therefore I cared less. How fucking awful.

It’s not just me though, it’s endemic, people are publicly showing all over Facebook the ‘good deed’ of letting a Ukrainian family stay, saying what they need.. I haven’t ever once seen that for any other war.

I’m embarrassed but rather come to this realisation now.. than not at all.

That's the human condition, though. We have more empathy if we can put ourselves in someone's shoes.

Its like becoming more sensitive to children being harmed once you become a parent. Or hearing about a tragic car crash on a road you drive down every day affecting you more than hearing about a crash elsewhere in the country.

You didn't care less about those people fleeing ISIS because they weren't white, but because you couldn't relate to them as easily as you can others.

If you're in England and people started fleeing Scotland, you'd care even more about them than you currently care about those from Ukraine.

OppsUpsSide · 20/03/2022 20:51

The day that white people suffer racism will be the same day you find a unicorn flying over your house

It has been repeatedly posted on this thread that by both the legal and dictionary definition of racism some ethnic/minority groups with white skin have and continue to suffer from racism against them. That you seek to deny/diminish their experiences, grandstand and claim that their experiences are not as important as other peoples because, because, because… leads me to believe that you are, in fact, no better than the people you are complaining about.
Whoever you are, I doubt very much that you are in a lower position of privilege than a person from within the travelling community, and yet, you refuse to even begin to acknowledge the similar challenges they face - due to racism.
Oh, and by the way, there goes another fucking unicorn.

VladmirsPoutine · 20/03/2022 20:52

@PigletJohn I didn't forget to 'add' anything. I'm mixed race and spent my life in many countries experiencing how the world viewed my parents who are respectively black and mixed race but 'white passing'. The UK is racist as hell but it's way better than a lot of places. Smile

OP posts:
sst1234 · 20/03/2022 20:53

@Starseeking

Diane Abbott, a Black woman MP of 30 years standing, gets more hate mail than ALL THE OTHER MPs PUT TOGETHER.
Do Kemi Badenoch and Kwasi Kwarteng get the same? I expect not. Maybe something to do with Diane Abbott coming across as quite dim.
Blossomtoes · 20/03/2022 20:55

Maybe something to do with Diane Abbott coming across as quite dim

More likely because she’s a woman. James Cleverly should get loads if dimness is the reason.

Fossilsmorefossils · 20/03/2022 20:55

@WeDontShutUpAboutBruno

Just look on MN.

Over the last month or 2 I have reported or questioned over 20 posts or threads that are racist.

When questioned people start with the whole "you can't say anything these days" or "that's what it was called when I was a child so it's fine" or "If its not called that anymore what is it called, I cant keep up with all this 'woke' culture"

There was one on the property board of all things using my culture and our sacred rituals as a pure piss take. MN are brilliant and take it seriously ime although I know others haven't had that experience with them.

The UK is very racist, but many/most people don't accept that because its seen as "political correctness gone mad".

People don't like to see racism called out because they see things they have said or done and realise that they are also intrinsically racist.

@WeDontShutUpAboutBruno

or "If its not called that anymore what is it called, I cant keep up with all this 'woke' culture"

I have to admit that I've made a mistake on here by using an old fashioned term. In my defense, I'm not British or from the UK and English isn't my first language. I know the proper terms in my own language but it is very hard to keep up with another language because I use it less. So I don't realise when I need to say something differently to not offend.

sst1234 · 20/03/2022 20:55

@Itsnotover

If you have to treat POC people very carefully because you're worried about being racist, then the uncomfortable truth for you is that you are racist, and you really need to work on that.

All white people are racist to some degree. Some of us don’t want to be but it takes work and a willingness to listen.

Wow, do ALL white people know that they are racist. This may be news to some of them.
HRTQueen · 20/03/2022 20:57

Snoozer11 post is exactly what is wrong on this country when racism is spoken about

All absolute nonsense but said oh so politely with explanations to

Snoozer11 · 20/03/2022 20:58

@HRTQueen

Snoozer11 post is exactly what is wrong on this country when racism is spoken about

All absolute nonsense but said oh so politely with explanations to

Care to elaborate?
ldontWanna · 20/03/2022 20:58

@Burgoo

Its hard to say as I'm white. I will be as gentle as I can whilst also stating my views though I am by no means saying my views are correct. They are, after all, views.

My first position is always "where is the evidence?" On any subject, what do we KNOW, rather than what we assume or interpret. In relation to Child Q, would they have done that with a white girl? Perhaps. If they would have then this isn't racism. How do you prove they wouldn't? I guess that would take a review of cases where children have been subjected to the exact intervention and looking at whether white girls have had this happen. There is a huge difference between "because" someone is black and their "happening to be" black. It is a leap to go from bad practice (it certainly was) to racism.

I am also always curious re: cognitive biases of people of colour (I don't like the term BAME). If you have been told for your entire life that the UK is fundamentally racist, it would follow that you would be much more hypervigilant about racism than if you hadn't.

I'll give an LGBT related example. I have a friend who is gay and he has a boyfriend. The couple booked a double room online, but when they arrived the man saw it was two men and said "we have over-booked, sorry we haven't got any rooms for you". My friend saw this as homophobic, his boyfriend did not. Why? Because my friend believed it was BECAUSE they were gay, not that they HAPPENED TO be gay and had bad luck w the booking. His boyfriend had very little bullying etc at school whilst my friend had a lot. One could argue that my friend's own assumptions about someone else's motivations/beliefs were causing him to believe something without sufficient evidence. I'm bisexual and I personally have dated guys in the past, and I wouldn't have assumed homophobia.

In terms of things like jobs, grades etc I believe that there are many other reasons (other than racism) that mean black people tend to have a tougher deal than white counterparts (Asians tend to actually do far better than white boys for example, but this is widely ignored). For me it is a class issue and yes there are more black people in the working class. The report into racism in the UK had a massive backlash when it was published because it looked at the broader context of race based inequalities. For example, black and Asian families are more likely to look after mentally ill family members at home rather than seek help. Part of that may be culturally they see mental illness as something different entirely. So when they DO have contact with services, they are often detained because they get significantly more unwell before seeking help. This is why more black men get detained over white counterparts. But campaigners would have you believe it is because the whole MH system is racist. Which is not based on empirical evidence.

In terms of representation, I think it is reasonable to assume that a 90+% white nation has a much higher representation in media than black/Asian individuals. I wouldn't go to China, Japan or Congo and expect to see a huge number of white faces on TV or in the media. Why? Because they don't have 50%+ people being white. That is simply logical.

With all that said, yes there are pockets of racism in the UK just like everywhere. I know people in the older generation (50+years old) who will say the most outrageous things about POC. That said, to say things haven't improved over the past 20 years is simply ludicrous.
We do need to stamp out the racism in sport - particularly football - as this is a huge problem.

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities. Universities are taking active steps to address these issues by doing more oral exams, poster assignments and simulation exams. They are also looking at changing the case studies to a more culturally diverse mix than the traditionally white case studies previously provided in areas like Social Work and other social sciences.

I think the race issue is much more a class issue - and one that desperately needs addressing BECAUSE more POC are in the working class bracket. If we address the class divide we should - in theory - see POC getting into much more successful positions.

In short, there are problems with racism and at the same time I think the nuance and evidence is often lost because its much easier to tackle (or ignore?) POC than it is to ignore a whole class (thousands aggrieved versus millions).

The review for child Q's case stated that racism was a factor. That is something we know, not an assumption.

Your post is basically a lengthy and pointless word soup denying racism and telling victims of racism to stop being so sensitive and aware of it.

Anon778833 · 20/03/2022 20:59

Diane Abbot went to Cambridge after overcoming a lot of racial prejudice to get into academically selective schools - I really don’t think she’s dim. She even had a teacher question her work and accuse her of copying it from somewhere because it was so good. Says it all!

WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo · 20/03/2022 21:00

Nothing to do with Diane Abbott being "dim" Hmm

Everything to do with the fact that the likes of Kemi Badenoch doing Johnsons bidding and saying the sorts of things that racists in this country like to hear.

Mango101 · 20/03/2022 21:01

Brexit :)

sst1234 · 20/03/2022 21:05

@WeDontTalkAboutBrunoNoNoNo

Nothing to do with Diane Abbott being "dim" Hmm

Everything to do with the fact that the likes of Kemi Badenoch doing Johnsons bidding and saying the sorts of things that racists in this country like to hear.

You forgot to add the usual insults that minorities get when they don’t tow the line and are seen to be doing the ‘bidding’ for white people. Trying to be like white people. I won’t repeat them, but this is exactly the kind of attitude displayed by people who use those insults.
HRTQueen · 20/03/2022 21:05

As soon as Harry was known to be dating Megan the comments of is she right for him started

And out of Compton referring to a film about black rappers why not mention other areas close to where she lived plenty of known places in LA. Is she a rapper too ? What connection is there?

One article in mainstream media is one article too many and they also allowed their comments to stand

it’s pitiful it really is such excuses are made

Wedontcare123 · 20/03/2022 21:12

My first position is always "where is the evidence?" On any subject, what do we KNOW, rather than what we assume or interpret. In relation to Child Q, would they have done that with a white girl? Perhaps. If they would have then this isn't racism. How do you prove they wouldn't? I guess that would take a review of cases where children have been subjected to the exact intervention and looking at whether white girls have had this happen. There is a huge difference between "because" someone is black and their "happening to be" black. It is a leap to go from bad practice (it certainly was) to racism

What do we KNOW? We KNOW that this wouldn't have happened to a white girl in the same circumstances because the people who had access to all the facts and evidence, and who reviewed everything that happened said that racism WAS a factor. So even knowing that, you, who is not in full possession of the facts or evidence, is saying "but it might not have been a factor. It might not have been because of race". It was. That's not even a discussion to be had. The officers sexually assaulted her because she was black and they believed she must therefore have weed on her so they strip searched a child at school. Because she is black.

Thoosa · 20/03/2022 21:12

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities.

Never heard that one before. I’m tempted to be offended. Is there a research basis for that?

Wedontcare123 · 20/03/2022 21:13

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities

You what?

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