To what extent would you say the UK is a racist country?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Bear with me on this. This thread is a culmination of some of the other threads I've been on and don't wish to derail. But thinking about for example ChildQ and the extent to which what happened to her was racially motivated, considering say the treatment of MM in the press which had a private school girl ostensibly painted as being 'straigh outta the hood'. I know that the UK is highlighted as one of the most racially tolerant places in the world, if not Europe. But just on the face of it I wonder, do you think the UK has a 'race problem'?

The thing about travellers is not about their colour , creed or culture per se it's their behaviour . Any group living outside of normal society norms will face prejudice , part of it is fear and people wanting to keep a distance.

Kinda ironic how on a thread about racism not one person(that I can see) has pulled up this post? Travellers bring racism on themselves? Of course nobody would say racism because they aren't going by the legal definition of racism but prefer to go by some definition made up by fuck knows who and call that gospel but not one person even called it out as 'prejudice'?

I agree. Publicly shaming well-meaning people for using the ‘wrong’ word, particularly when that word was considered perfectly acceptable until five minutes ago, (eg ‘people of colour’ vs ‘coloured people’) is not the way to win hearts & minds.

So is it the case that people should keep quiet when people use old outdated terminology to describe them? Because if the person saying it were that well meaning, they wouldn't take offence at being corrected.

@RoastedFerret

The thing about travellers is not about their colour , creed or culture per se it's their behaviour . Any group living outside of normal society norms will face prejudice , part of it is fear and people wanting to keep a distance.

Kinda ironic how on a thread about racism not one person(that I can see) has pulled up this post? Travellers bring racism on themselves? Of course nobody would say racism because they aren't going by the legal definition of racism but prefer to go by some definition made up by fuck knows who and call that gospel but not one person even called it out as 'prejudice'?

Of course it's racist!

If you have to treat POC people very carefully because you're worried about being racist, then the uncomfortable truth for you is that you are racist, and you really need to work on that.

All white people are racist to some degree. Some of us don’t want to be but it takes work and a willingness to listen.

@RoastedFerret

The thing about travellers is not about their colour , creed or culture per se it's their behaviour . Any group living outside of normal society norms will face prejudice , part of it is fear and people wanting to keep a distance.

Kinda ironic how on a thread about racism not one person(that I can see) has pulled up this post? Travellers bring racism on themselves? Of course nobody would say racism because they aren't going by the legal definition of racism but prefer to go by some definition made up by fuck knows who and call that gospel but not one person even called it out as 'prejudice'?

There was a good post the other day showing the shit attitudes of British people. Someone was complaining about tourists shitting in beauty spots, laybys, camping spots etc and not cleaning up after themselves, just leaving it. Some people blamed travellers. Nope it's apparent middle class people, more like classless people. But sure, blame travellers..

@Charley50

Growing up in London having black and Asian friends and growing up partying to the same music, eating each other's food of heritage etc, I thought racism was going away to a large extent. I think many city-dwelling people are actively anti-racist (can't speak for people that live in towns or the countryside). I don't have other white people making racist comments to me about black or Asian people, and find people are warm and friendly to people of all races and backgrounds. If anything I feel that people of many races think it's acceptable to say anti-Semitic things publicly, which I challenge if I hear.

However I think maybe I was a bit naive. We have much institutional racism; e.g. school exclusions and police. I think our current government behaved, and continues to behave, absolutely appallingly over the Windrush scandal, and this actually made me feel embarrassed to be British. What happened to Schoolgirl Q was shocking and criminal, and I think her school was complicit. I personally feel the police seems to be run for white males. Blank people don't trust them, (and neither do women in general anymore). Police culture seems out of step with how we behave in 2022.
Also social media has given a voice to racists. I don't know how much racism there is on there, but I know Diane Abbott gets more abuse than any other MP, and that however amazing Marcus Rashford has been for the poor people in the UK, he still gets racist abuse on social media, although the abuse caused an outpouring of support.

Agree with this.

@WeDontShutUpAboutBruno

Unlike me who feels the need to treat black people extremely carefully for fear of being racist (something learnt from the media).

I've never felt the need to treat gay people carefully, because I'm not homophobic.

If you have to treat POC people very carefully because you're worried about being racist, then the uncomfortable truth for you is that you are racist, and you really need to work on that.

Nah, dude.

The liberal over-woke left are aggressive, blinkered and completely unwilling to listen to anything that doesn't toe the party line to a T.

Look at university professors getting death threats for saying we need considered and respectful debate over trans issues... no wonder people are hyper-aware of what they allow out of their mouths.

People being afraid of putting a foot wrong around these issues is not because they're racist or homophobic, it's because of far-left righteous lynch mobs making normal behaviour a danger zone.

Unfortunately, so many people who you would never expect to be racist or prejudiced in any way, think it's acceptable, RoastedFerret.

I've never felt the need to treat gay people carefully, because I'm not homophobic.

If you have to treat POC people very carefully because you're worried about being racist, then the uncomfortable truth for you is that you are racist, and you really need to work on that.
This comment is directed at someone else, but I wanted to respond to it. I've never felt a need to treat POC carefully, because I'm sincere in never wanting to be racist and so don't feel any kind of guilt or shame. I know I'll be ignorant sometimes as I haven't lived life as a POC, but I'm open to listening. I've worked with a lot of people of different ethnicities, so I feel very comfortable having conversations about cultural or religious issues where other white people seem to tip-toe around things (I only talk about such things if they're relevant, I don't try to bring up cultural topics in a cringey David Brent way before anyone suggests that!) I don't seem to get a negative response to this from POC, although I do sometimes get white people trying to shame me or tell me how to think, how to behave, picking over what I've said and trying to insinuate sinister motives. Sometimes other white people get in the way of any kind of straightforward honest dialogue and I wish they'd butt out!

Like I stated I am white ,but not British.

Some comments I've had at work.

Are you even legal?
Are you still allowed to be here?(after Brexit)
I can barely understand you, so how do you expect the kids to?
Correcting my pronunciation in front of children/other staff.(I wasn't wrong)
Every time there's a training or meeting regarding grammar someone always pipes up to ask me if it's harder for me, how am I coping, do I find this or that tricky?
(I am really good at my job as evidenced by several exceeding performance reviews,I have worked there for years and children make progress in 1 2 1's or small groups with me,despite apparently being so hard to understand).

Quite recently a very lengthy conversation on whether I deem the word "foreign" offensive, with arguments why it could be seen as offensive and so on despite me saying straight away that I don't and trying to change the subject/make jokes. 3 of them piping in and one of me. "But at the doctors a foreign object is a bad thing." was one of the arguments.

That's without the usual jokes about stealing wallets, prostitutes,"my lot" doing this and that, "go back home" shite ,"oh we don't mean YOU" and so on in general day to day.

I'm still painfully aware though that my skin colour does offer a layer of protection.

So if you think my examples are bad and unacceptable, just think how much worse it is for someone who's skin instantly shows them up as "other".

We don't need lynching and hangings for racism to exist.

@WiddlinDiddling

Such a complex issue..

Do we see black people being shot in the streets, lynched, KKK meetings and people being burned in their own homes - no, not to my knowledge.

Do we have widespread 'casual' racism, institutional racism, systemic racism throughout large organisations like the NHS, the police, education.. yes. Are horrific things done as a result - yes.

I take a HUGE issue with being told none of my opinion can be valid or legitimate because I am white though - that honestly does not make me feel like engaging in discussion or much like doing my best to help others!

I have not experienced being black, I can't, I am not black.

I have experienced being judged, discriminated against, experienced verbal and physical abuse, as a result of my appearance however, many many times throughout my life, to the point where it absolutely affects what I do and where I go.

I do believe that much of my white privilege is negated by being female, by being fat and most of all, by being disabled.

I have been spat at, yelled at, told 'your type can't come in here', been turned down for jobs before they've even met me as my photo includes a full shot in my wheelchair (those are just a few examples out of many!).

Looking back across history, disabled people have been treated appallingly pretty much since records began.

We've been killed at birth, slaughtered in the millions and hundreds of thousands at various points, some within living memory - we've been denied basic human rights to reproduce, to own property, to marry, to live independently.
We've been treated as sinners, as demons, as an example to others of what may befall you if you are not god-fearing, worthy, etc etc.
We've been tortured as experiements and attempts at cure, segregated, isolated and institutionalised, again some of this within living memory.

Dr Alexis Carrell - nobel prize winner, 1935, wrote a paper suggesting that the mentally ill (which would include those with autism, adhd, depression, schizophrenia and much much more) should be disposed of via euthanasia centres, via gas chambers.

Hitler of course, estimated to have killed 275'000 disabled people under his 'Aktion T4' program. These sick and disabled people were considered 'life unworthy of life'.

The millions (potentially as many as 20 million) of witches... in fact women suffering mental illness, physical disabilities and sickness... killed in the 1500's ..

Good ole Winston Churchill, as then Home Secretary, was very much in favour of confinement, segregation and sterilisation of the disabled, considering them a threat to british society. We made him prime minster of course. Lovely.

In 1965 the UK saw the first legislation to deal with racial discrimination in the Race Relations Act - this outlawed discrimination based on colour, race, nationality or ethnicity in a public place.

It wasn't until THIRTY YEARS later, in1995 that disabled people got similar protection against discrimination.

I am not saying for one second that this is the same as racism and the history of slavery - but there are absolutely comparable elements.

So to be told I can have no valid opinion... I think you might see why my response to that is pretty angry.

Throughout history, some people have been treated extremely poorly by others. That continues in some form or other to this day, but I think the answer has to be working together, not further division and 'you can't possibly understand' - we can bloody well try!

Well said, I’m not disabled but I did get attacked for being white and no one no matter what skin colour or abilities should be abused or attacked, the posters saying whites can’t experience racism is truly shocking and has actually really upset me and I can’t believe in this day and age we are told what can’t happen to us, if a black woman got attacked by white women there would be an outcry on here but no one on here supported me and I suspect don’t support you either!!!

We are all women and should be there for each other despite our different backgrounds!

So if anyone no matter your background has been physically attacked or abused for being any colour or ability, I know what your going through and I’m sorry it happened to you too

Its hard to say as I'm white. I will be as gentle as I can whilst also stating my views though I am by no means saying my views are correct. They are, after all, views.

My first position is always "where is the evidence?" On any subject, what do we KNOW, rather than what we assume or interpret. In relation to Child Q, would they have done that with a white girl? Perhaps. If they would have then this isn't racism. How do you prove they wouldn't? I guess that would take a review of cases where children have been subjected to the exact intervention and looking at whether white girls have had this happen. There is a huge difference between "because" someone is black and their "happening to be" black. It is a leap to go from bad practice (it certainly was) to racism.

I am also always curious re: cognitive biases of people of colour (I don't like the term BAME). If you have been told for your entire life that the UK is fundamentally racist, it would follow that you would be much more hypervigilant about racism than if you hadn't.

I'll give an LGBT related example. I have a friend who is gay and he has a boyfriend. The couple booked a double room online, but when they arrived the man saw it was two men and said "we have over-booked, sorry we haven't got any rooms for you". My friend saw this as homophobic, his boyfriend did not. Why? Because my friend believed it was BECAUSE they were gay, not that they HAPPENED TO be gay and had bad luck w the booking. His boyfriend had very little bullying etc at school whilst my friend had a lot. One could argue that my friend's own assumptions about someone else's motivations/beliefs were causing him to believe something without sufficient evidence. I'm bisexual and I personally have dated guys in the past, and I wouldn't have assumed homophobia.

In terms of things like jobs, grades etc I believe that there are many other reasons (other than racism) that mean black people tend to have a tougher deal than white counterparts (Asians tend to actually do far better than white boys for example, but this is widely ignored). For me it is a class issue and yes there are more black people in the working class. The report into racism in the UK had a massive backlash when it was published because it looked at the broader context of race based inequalities. For example, black and Asian families are more likely to look after mentally ill family members at home rather than seek help. Part of that may be culturally they see mental illness as something different entirely. So when they DO have contact with services, they are often detained because they get significantly more unwell before seeking help. This is why more black men get detained over white counterparts. But campaigners would have you believe it is because the whole MH system is racist. Which is not based on empirical evidence.

In terms of representation, I think it is reasonable to assume that a 90+% white nation has a much higher representation in media than black/Asian individuals. I wouldn't go to China, Japan or Congo and expect to see a huge number of white faces on TV or in the media. Why? Because they don't have 50%+ people being white. That is simply logical.

With all that said, yes there are pockets of racism in the UK just like everywhere. I know people in the older generation (50+years old) who will say the most outrageous things about POC. That said, to say things haven't improved over the past 20 years is simply ludicrous.
We do need to stamp out the racism in sport - particularly football - as this is a huge problem.

We also need to change the way in which we mark and assess university courses in the UK because we know that written assignments (2000-6000+ words) is not always representative of POC's abilities. Universities are taking active steps to address these issues by doing more oral exams, poster assignments and simulation exams. They are also looking at changing the case studies to a more culturally diverse mix than the traditionally white case studies previously provided in areas like Social Work and other social sciences.

I think the race issue is much more a class issue - and one that desperately needs addressing BECAUSE more POC are in the working class bracket. If we address the class divide we should - in theory - see POC getting into much more successful positions.

In short, there are problems with racism and at the same time I think the nuance and evidence is often lost because its much easier to tackle (or ignore?) POC than it is to ignore a whole class (thousands aggrieved versus millions).

For context I am Asian (Indian background). I am forever hearing what a tolerant society the U.K. is and that is accurate. But I don’t want to be tolerated I want to be accepted, and I don’t want to experience racism, overtly, systematically, subtly, or anything and there is still some way to go for that.

I think there is a lot of racism, anti Semitism & xenophobia in the UK definitely.
The first two against Black, Asian & mixed race people & Jewish people; and xenophobia against mostly Eastern Europeans & Romanies / Irish travellers

I've personally heard and known of insults & worse towards friends family & colleagues from all these groups.

And it's true that every White family has a racist Nana. Well maybe it's not Nana who's racist, but it could be your uncle, brother or mum.
Does that make everyone feel uncomfortable??
If you think most White families in the UK have at least one racist relative... that's millions of racists right there.
It's actually very hard to deal with when it's someone you love being unpleasant and racist... but there are ways to call it out and challenge the racism and try to educate the person.

It’s a very complex subject , just referring to the person above who said they hate white liberals— as someone who is white and pretty liberal too and doesn’t care if people are pink, brown , black or purple with green spots - that comment annoyed me. Im a take everyone individually as i find them kind of person— I would though like to pass comment on something that does pee me off. The MOBO awards (music of black origin) I work in that industry , there is no shortage of non Caucasians in music at both artist or indeed staff levels — — can you imagine the feedback if I set up the MOWO awards. ? (Not that I would) because I think awards should be based on merit— not what ethnicity you are. Anyone though who thinks Britain isn’t racist clearly wasn’t following Facebook threads or twitter prior to the EU referendum. I was absolutely horrified— mainly over 50s (I’m 60) if I am honest and a mix of classes — the thing was most of these truly dreadful views they expressed were about non EU nationalities— clearly plenty had zero understanding of the issues being voted on — and the obsession was always with Middle East and Asians and Africans — rarely with West Indian heritage It seemed — the racism is often very specific. It’s not a UK specific thing though— many other places are very racist too — although may be less obvious about it (like here in Denmark)

Also... this

Unlike me who feels the need to treat black people extremely carefully for fear of being racist (something learnt from the media).

I have never understood this behaviour and I find it eye-rolling because it’s othering on top of treating a race like a monolith while screaming I don’t interact and/or get to know people who don’t look like me.

I don’t think we should be priding ourselves on being a more tolerant country than x, y or z we should be looking at not accepting racism. Let people talk of their experiences and listen

And what message does that give oh well we are more tolerant than that country you are lucky to not live there

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

If the question was, "is there sexism in the uk" then I think you'd find the answers to be very similar.

What with men telling you it doesn't exist or it's worse in France or why don't we think about how men feel when they are sexualised and one time they got their bum pinched in a night club or they understand because they have a sister who hates men.

@Jchina

For context I am Asian (Indian background). I am forever hearing what a tolerant society the U.K. is and that is accurate. But I don’t want to be tolerated I want to be accepted, and I don’t want to experience racism, overtly, systematically, subtly, or anything and there is still some way to go for that.

I find this really interesting, as I've lived in the Netherlands which is known for being a tolerant society. However, from what I saw racism was worse there than the UK, certainly more overt and politically organised. I think people living in a 'tolerant' society are often hiding a lot of hypocrisy - there's usually a resentment that builds up because they're expected to perform their tolerance all the time, and aren't allowed to express any divergent views - whether they be about race, women, immigration, or any other 'controversial' topic. I think a lack of free speech leads to greater racism. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for people to be allowed to say racist things, this should always be called out, but people should be allowed to discuss sensitive issues, ask dumb questions etc. When people feel like they aren't allowed to talk about issues surrounding race, then they turn to racist platforms, racist political parties and organisations. I'd be interested in hearing what you think an accepting, rather than just a tolerant society would look like, because I understand what you are saying about being 'tolerated' not being enough and I think you're right, but I don't know what acceptance would look like versus tolerance. I guess I'm looking for a definition.

The first two against Black, Asian & mixed race people & Jewish people; and xenophobia against mostly Eastern Europeans & Romanies / Irish travellers

Ou of interest why have you singled out travellers and Romanies as xenophobia? I thought xenophobia is usually against people from other countries or 'foreigners' not ethnic minorities? At the very least I thought you would class it as ethnic discrimination?

Everything is more extreme since social media, because everyone who wants one has a voice, because anonymity means racism, homophobia, disabllism and misogyny are amplified, and because of algorithms. If I watch videos of racism in action, I'll be fed more of them. It will start to seem like racism is the driving force in society. It's become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Personally I think that prejudice against other groups, racism, and misogyny will never go away.

Oh I got the meaning of xenophobia wrong then sorry.

There is a lot of rhetoric that we're all racist, and until that's not going to go away, regardless of what we do.

@SommerTen has demonstrated this perfectly.

Our reaction to those fleeing Ukraine was woeful. The government was not prepared to help those people in any way possible.

Every year, we take in and house thousands of migrants who aren't white, fleeing their countries for England.

And yet, what was the rhetoric? That we're prepared to help those from Ukraine (we weren't) and would refuse help to anyone black or brown (we do).

And of course, that doesn't take into account that maybe people are naturally more empathetic to people they have more in common with, that those from Ukraine feel much closer to home, that millions were displaced overnight and that those fleeing are mostly women and children, as opposed to young men.

There's just so much baseless rhetoric.

People from countries attacking members of the British elite who died 300 years ago, but saying nothing about the slavery that's happening in their home countries as we speak.

That's not to say there isn't racism. There is, and it's awful and must be stopped. But there's a very significant voice that just wants to cause problems.

Remember David Lammy denouncing "white saviours" for comic relief. People had donated money from their own pay packets to support those in need, only to be sneered at and accused of racism for doing so.

@Polyanthus2

You could be a white person and suffer racism. I think we are racist but we also have the most shit-stirring press and media which fans the flames.

True. But your not the minority if your white so it can and never ever will be the same sort of scenario. Because you are not an ethnic minority if you are white... in UK.