To despair at our obession with cars

[SelkieQualia]

They are awful. Noisy. Polluting. 4 million people die every year from the effects of air pollution. Housing developments are built around them, which means that the most vulnerable people in our society - young people, the elderly - are made even more dependant on those who drive.
Why do we tolerate such terrible public transport and cycling infrastructure?

In reality, rather than arguing about mode of transport, i.e. the old "car versus bus", what we should be looking at is reducing transport of whatever form. That way we wouldn't be just transferring the costs/pollution of transport from car to bus/train or whatever.

Encouraging/facilitating people to need to travel less is the real answer to the problems. I.e. localism. Get people back to shopping/working more locally and incentive that instead of subsidising public transport.

Go back a few decades and people really didn't travel as much. They worked/shopped much closer to where they lived, and there was usually recreation/entertainment more locally too. Over the past 30 years or so, nearly everything has been centralised, local shops have been closed down firstly by town centre shopping centres, then huge out of town retail parks etc. National firms (banks, accountants, insurance firms etc) have closed down town centre/regional offices and centralised into London and a handful of other big cities. There's been a "drain away" from villages, small towns, etc leaving people with no choice but to have to travel for work, shopping, leisure, etc.

A policy of localism would help reverse that. There were a few green shoots of optimism due to covid, where people started getting things delivered instead of going shopping (but more vans on the road), people working from home, a suggestion that small/village shops/cafes could become profitable again if people worked from home instead of commuting for an hour or two to their city jobs. All that seems to have stalled now and people are reverting back to how it was before, which is a great shame.

Like 20min neighbourhoods, although that's mainly an urban solution
www.rtpi.org.uk/research/2021/march/20-minute-neighbourhoods/#:~:text=20%20minute%20neighbourhoods%20are%20a,within%20a%2020%20minute%20walk.

If the fuel duty freeze over the next 5 years costs over £7 billion in tax for the country, there would have been the money to give free bus transport for every single person in the country

The rising fuel costs will be going some way to counter that as a result of VAT.

At current prices the government is taking £34bn/year in fuel taxes alone. That’s going to be a big hole to fill once we all go electric.

That’s going to be a big hole to fill once we all go electric.

The government will just charge drivers to use roads, it will eventually happen as there is such a short fall

@ivykaty44

That’s going to be a big hole to fill once we all go electric.

The government will just charge drivers to use roads, it will eventually happen as there is such a short fall

They'll start rising the vehicle excise duty (road tax) which is currently zero for electric cars. That's a quick and easy win for them.

Road pricing is more difficult, but a cynic could say that all the congestion charge cameras and Smart motorways would be a good start for road use pricing in the busier/congested places. Currently, congestion charges are lower/zero for low emission cars, but, like road tax, that's very easy to change.

More difficult to do road use pricing in less congested/rural areas as there are fewer cameras, but I'm sure that would follow over a few years, as the camera infrastructure is expanded, say, to the entire motorway network first, then onto dual carriageways, etc over time.

I don't think it's heavily subsidised is it?

@Peasock Ive had the decency to back up my statement with links to show the figures and working - at least lets have you prove me wrong withe the same - happy to be shown Im incorrect with some facts and figures rather than your thoughts

and go and research who owns hospital carparks, as it not the government

Badbadbunny a box fitted in each and every car to charge for road use, it wouldn't be difficult to fit. Cars will be fitted soon enough with speed limiters

Probably because it's a pipe dream to access everything you need locally. I take my autistic dc 10 miles to school. He wouldn't cope with either public transport or school transport and both would take five times as long as a car trip (no exaggeration).

I make lots of unnecessary journeys due to other people's incompetence. Meds that are hospital only ones where the delivery system doesn't work - I have to go get them.

They'll start rising the vehicle excise duty (road tax) which is currently zero for electric cars. That's a quick and easy win for them.

That’s what I think will happen. You’ll be paying a couple of grand a year for your RFL

your RFL

Sorry, VED is what I meant. RFL was years ago

@ivykaty44

I don't think it's heavily subsidised is it?

@Peasock Ive had the decency to back up my statement with links to show the figures and working - at least lets have you prove me wrong withe the same - happy to be shown Im incorrect with some facts and figures rather than your thoughts

and go and research who owns hospital carparks, as it not the government

I can't be bothered to trawl back through, but subsidising public transport in lieu of whatever still won't help many. Also maybe do yours hun, hospitals do own their car parks but trusts hire the private parking firms.

@Nicholethejewellery

I despair at the anti-car attitude many people have. Many seem to be against cars in themselves rather than against pollution and accidents.

Cars can be made cleaner, the process has been going on for decades now. A modern vehicle creates a tiny fraction of the pollution of one from the late 1980's. There's still a long way to go but new technologies will make cars cleaner to the point where the only emission is water.

Cars can be made safe, again a process that's been ongoing for decades. Since the Euro NCAP tests were created tens of thousands of lives have been saved. (One of the main benefits of these tests is that cars are bought from dealers rather than the manufacturer being able to supply a vehicle of their own choosing - which wasn't a great thing.)

In terms of safety we will fairly soon reach the point where self-driving AI cars become demonstrably safer than human-driven cars. This will prevent most incidents even occurring.

Rather than expect (other) people to give up their cars, we should pressure the government to speed up safety and environmental measures, and force scientists to work harder to solve the remaining problems.

Clearly there will also need to be a large scrappage scheme to remove non-compliant vehicles from the road. Maybe if there was a rule where a car could be on the road for no more than ten years, after which the owner has to scrap it. Collectors would still be allowed to keep older cars at home and take them to events on a trailer.

Cars still take up a lot of space, and are still sedentary. Villages and housing built around cars is not conductive to exercise.

It's more about giving people the freedom to use active transport if they wish, and not be forced into the economic cost of having a car.

@user1497207191

In reality, rather than arguing about mode of transport, i.e. the old "car versus bus", what we should be looking at is reducing transport of whatever form. That way we wouldn't be just transferring the costs/pollution of transport from car to bus/train or whatever.

Encouraging/facilitating people to need to travel less is the real answer to the problems. I.e. localism. Get people back to shopping/working more locally and incentive that instead of subsidising public transport.

Go back a few decades and people really didn't travel as much. They worked/shopped much closer to where they lived, and there was usually recreation/entertainment more locally too. Over the past 30 years or so, nearly everything has been centralised, local shops have been closed down firstly by town centre shopping centres, then huge out of town retail parks etc. National firms (banks, accountants, insurance firms etc) have closed down town centre/regional offices and centralised into London and a handful of other big cities. There's been a "drain away" from villages, small towns, etc leaving people with no choice but to have to travel for work, shopping, leisure, etc.

A policy of localism would help reverse that. There were a few green shoots of optimism due to covid, where people started getting things delivered instead of going shopping (but more vans on the road), people working from home, a suggestion that small/village shops/cafes could become profitable again if people worked from home instead of commuting for an hour or two to their city jobs. All that seems to have stalled now and people are reverting back to how it was before, which is a great shame.

Good alternative transport routes would help local shops survive. There's a little shopping centre about 15 minutes ride from me, so biking and driving aren't much different, time wise. Trouble is, riding my bike seems hard when I think about dodging cars - so I'm more inclined to get in my car. If I get in my car, I'm more inclined to go to the bigger shopping centre. This means that the little shopping centre, which is a bit of a community hub, does not get the income.

Encouraging/facilitating people to need to travel less is the real answer to the problems. I.e. localism. Get people back to shopping/working more locally and incentive that instead of subsidising public transport.

It's not always the answer. I work 4 miles from home so I count that as fairly local. I'm not going to get much closer unless I work in the corner shop! However I still need a car as the route to work isn't safe and not because of cars. It's dark and lonely and, while they could improve the lighting, there's not a lot anyone can do about the loneliness and to me my safety is more important than reducing car usage.

I guess more car sharing could be an answer

@Momicrone

I guess more car sharing could be an answer

Lots of people already share where they're doing similar journeys and similar times. We have a park n ride car park near us which is half full at 7am in the morning, but the first bus doesn't leave until 7.30. It's all people parking up there for the day and "car sharing" with others down the motorway to the next towns/cities for jobs. They meet up there and take it in turn to drive the long distance.

Not quite so easy when you start work at 9 but neighbour starts at 10, and your children go to different schools in different directions.

It's a nice idea, and yes, probably more could do it, but it's only nibbling around the edges of the problem and simply won't work for the majority who don't start/end their journeys at the same place/time.

I've not read the entire thread so this may have been mentioned, but working from home would make such a big difference. Now the covid situation has improved, more and more people I speak to are being pushed back into coming to the office again (despite working from home successfully for 2 years).

It's such a shame as it gave the perfect opportunity to make WFH a more permanent thing and get a load of cars off the road.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Encouraging/facilitating people to need to travel less is the real answer to the problems. I.e. localism. Get people back to shopping/working more locally and incentive that instead of subsidising public transport.

It's not always the answer. I work 4 miles from home so I count that as fairly local. I'm not going to get much closer unless I work in the corner shop! However I still need a car as the route to work isn't safe and not because of cars. It's dark and lonely and, while they could improve the lighting, there's not a lot anyone can do about the loneliness and to me my safety is more important than reducing car usage.

4 miles isn't really "local" though. I was meaning more back to walking distance. You only need to go back to the 70s'/80's and there were shops on street corners and small precincts in housing estates etc. Villages would have their own primary schools. Small towns and even villages would have bank branches, libraries, vets, GP surgeries, and usually a variety of small businesses, so lots of "local" employment opportunities.

My first job was at an accountancy practice within walking distance, my OH's first job was at a bakery within walking distance. Neither of us lived in a town centre, we were on the outskirts, but there were plenty of amenities/facilities on our doorstep. There is literally nothing in those areas anymore - the corner shops and shopping precincts have been converted into housing, with the occasional hair salon or nail bar. The only thing within walking distance is a petrol station including a expensive convenience store.

The same loss of business/amenities is now happening in town centres, with even the likes of vets, dentists, GP surgeries, solicitors, etc moving onto out of town retail/business parks.

That centralisation movement needs to be reversed if we are to have a hope of reducing car usage. Get businesses back into town centres where public transport is more viable, and get smaller businesses back into villages, town suburbs etc to serve the immediate local community. To do that, we need Govt to have that vision and to provide incentives/grants etc to make it happen.

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

Encouraging/facilitating people to need to travel less is the real answer to the problems. I.e. localism. Get people back to shopping/working more locally and incentive that instead of subsidising public transport.

It's not always the answer. I work 4 miles from home so I count that as fairly local. I'm not going to get much closer unless I work in the corner shop! However I still need a car as the route to work isn't safe and not because of cars. It's dark and lonely and, while they could improve the lighting, there's not a lot anyone can do about the loneliness and to me my safety is more important than reducing car usage.

If the lighting were improved and the path had good links and was well maintained, then you might get enough people using it that it would not feel lonely.

Peasock www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hospital-parking-charges-parkingeye-profits-rise-nhs-money-a8449671.html research seems to suggest that it’s private companies making profit from NHS carparks?

4 miles isn't massively close although only half hour by bike

@Momicrone

4 miles isn't massively close although only half hour by bike

According to Google 13 minutes! As I'm not Laura Kenny and don't want to get to work all hot and sweaty I'd probably allow 45 minutes!

Then I look out of the window at the pissing rain today and appreciate my car!

If the lighting were improved and the path had good links and was well maintained, then you might get enough people using it that it would not feel lonely.

It's a road with trees along one side and the river on the other leading to a towpath. There really isn't a lot you can do with it. I'd hate to see it developed too much because of the wildlife.

I'd still only use it in good weather though - not too hot, not too cold and definitely not when it's raining!

The point about little localised shops is interesting. I live in Gtr Mcr and I have no local butcher, baker, fishmonger or greengrocer. I have a chemist and a tiny Co-op within walking distance. If I want to buy food, I have to get to a supermarket - the nearest is 5 miles away.

My mum used to shop regularly at indie shops - probably half our weekly shop came from them. But it was mid 1970s and she’d given up work to care for us. Nowadays most of us work full time - I don’t have time on a weekend to nip to three or four little shops. I’ve long thought that if these shops had opened late a couple of nights a week - say, 12 noon to 8pm, maybe some would have survived.

The local stuff is a really good point.

I'm not joking that you'd struggle to buy and egg or an apple in our town center. We do have a butcher and a Greg's but every other food shop is in a retail park.