Surely they can’t expect us to pay 240 per month for power!

[Ellie198712]

Just read Martin Lewis’s latest email and it’s predicting average bills of £2900 per year!! Surely the government will need to step in and subsidise this cost. Our current bill is about 100 per month, and this just seems untenable for the vast majority

Ooh! Knickers well and truly ruched, it seems!

But I do love the word profucktivity I shall adopt it forthwith!

I could, maube I should.

A house is an asset. Period. There is nothing magical about it.

Ownership removes individuals from the pool of people requiring government aid for housing costs. Outright ownership removes them completely AND leaves them open to having that asset sold to pay for later life care.

The UK is in a rightful mess because we keep propping up housing assets without taxing them properly.

How would you tax a home? Second homes and BTLS yes. They can be taxed differently. But a home? That gets taxed upon sale....

What else? A car? A motorhome? A boat? Pair of diamond earrings? Fur coat? Taxed purely for them existing?

We keep taxing the productive working population for the benefit of the unproductive retired population (for political reasons), while at the same time crafting policies to materially increase the wealth of the retired population at the expense of the working population (also for political reasons).

Erm, yes. They are the ones with earnings and earning potential. They too will be recipients when they retire. That is the system. Those 'unproductive retired population' is old, physically knackered etc, What do you want to happen to them? Seriously, what do you want them to do? Apparently they can't own a home, or have savings etc. So what?

And people actually have the gall to claim pensioners have it bad.

AKA some people acknowledge that their is a wide variety of financial status amongst the retired, as there is amongst any other cohort.

As a group, they are now the wealthiest segment of UK society. The pendulum has swung way too far for their benefit and society has fractured.

You can keep on repeating that and the actual figures will continue to call you a liar. Come Actual Actuary, you are nothing without the correct facts and figures.

This is also why UK profuctivity is suffering so much. More and more of our resources go towards the unproductive, retired folks and not enough gets invested to improve the skills and opportunities of the working population.

Erm, again. Think about the humans you are talking about. Or do you envisage a Soylent Green / Logan's Run style solution?

This has to stop. If it does not, the whole country will just get pooret and poorer as society ages due to demographics and the concentration of wealth.

Ooh! Do we age because of demographics and wealth?

I'll stay poor and young thanks - forever!

@BambinaJAS

That is not how it works.

Those 55+ have never paid for the social care of the older generations as a component of NI.

Absolutely 100% never.

Everyone who pays NI is paying for previous generations’ state pensions. Always have, that’s how the system was set up. So those aged 55 to 66 who are in paid employment are paying the pensions of those older than them.

Absolutely 100% always.

@Beancounter1

It is worth pointing out that most pension schemes, including the auto-enrolment ones, have a lot of shares in the gas and electricity companies. So if they aren't making good profits then the value of your future pension goes down.

Once the cost of living increase really hits I won't be able to afford the £90 a month I pay into my automatic enrolment pension anyway & given that retirement is a minimum of 25 years away & likely to increase I'm not really thinking that far ahead when in all likelihood I'll be dead by then anyway either of starvation or hypothermia.

@BambinaJAS

That is not how it works.

Those 55+ have never paid for the social care of the older generations as a component of NI.

Absolutely 100% never.

Ah! Goal posts shifted, labels changed. OK!

We all know that NI pays for state pension, statutory sick pay or maternity leave, or entitlement to additional unemployment benefits and that the new levy will be ring fenced for NHS and social care. In te interim NI hikes will do the same, informally. Previously it was funded through general taxation.

Only you have focussed on NICs.

What is the health and social care levy? From .gov.uk
The levy will be a 1.25% tax on earnings for employees, the self-employed and employers. It will tax earnings in the same way as National Insurance contributions (NICs), except that it will also apply to the earnings of those over state pension age. It will come into force in the tax year starting in April 2023.

Before the levy is introduced all three rates of NICs will increase by 1.25 percentage points, in April 2022. This has the same effect as the levy, except that it will not apply to earnings over state pension age. NICs rates will then return to their current levels in April 2023, when the levy comes into effect

@SamphiretheStickerist

Ooh! Knickers well and truly ruched, it seems!

But I do love the word profucktivity I shall adopt it forthwith!

I could, maube I should.

A house is an asset. Period. There is nothing magical about it.

Ownership removes individuals from the pool of people requiring government aid for housing costs. Outright ownership removes them completely AND leaves them open to having that asset sold to pay for later life care.

The UK is in a rightful mess because we keep propping up housing assets without taxing them properly.

How would you tax a home? Second homes and BTLS yes. They can be taxed differently. But a home? That gets taxed upon sale....

What else? A car? A motorhome? A boat? Pair of diamond earrings? Fur coat? Taxed purely for them existing?

We keep taxing the productive working population for the benefit of the unproductive retired population (for political reasons), while at the same time crafting policies to materially increase the wealth of the retired population at the expense of the working population (also for political reasons).

Erm, yes. They are the ones with earnings and earning potential. They too will be recipients when they retire. That is the system. Those 'unproductive retired population' is old, physically knackered etc, What do you want to happen to them? Seriously, what do you want them to do? Apparently they can't own a home, or have savings etc. So what?

And people actually have the gall to claim pensioners have it bad.

AKA some people acknowledge that their is a wide variety of financial status amongst the retired, as there is amongst any other cohort.

As a group, they are now the wealthiest segment of UK society. The pendulum has swung way too far for their benefit and society has fractured.

You can keep on repeating that and the actual figures will continue to call you a liar. Come Actual Actuary, you are nothing without the correct facts and figures.

This is also why UK profuctivity is suffering so much. More and more of our resources go towards the unproductive, retired folks and not enough gets invested to improve the skills and opportunities of the working population.

Erm, again. Think about the humans you are talking about. Or do you envisage a Soylent Green / Logan's Run style solution?

This has to stop. If it does not, the whole country will just get pooret and poorer as society ages due to demographics and the concentration of wealth.

Ooh! Do we age because of demographics and wealth?

I'll stay poor and young thanks - forever!

Christ, you really are totally clueless aren't you?

The boomer cohort is far larger demographically speaking vs the younger cohorts.

The ratio of workers to retirees used to be 12:1 and life expectancy at 60 was 10-15 years.

That ratio is down to 7:1 and life expectancy at 65 is now 18 years.

People like yourself, who clearly have no idea of the specifics prefer to bury your head in the sand thinking its all going to be ok.

Problem is, it isn't. Without immigration (bringing younger people into the working population) the UK is sitting on a demographic time bomb.

This means taxes will keep increasing for the working population to pay for the healthcare, pensions, and social care of the retired population.

This is not sustainable as more and more working people will be thrust into poverty. At that point, younger people will emigrate (brain drain) because they will see no future if they stay in the UK. This is happening as we speak.

Going "lalalalala" will not change the financial and demographic reality.

I am constantly amazed at the lack of education in the UK about these matters.

@SamphiretheStickerist a lot of older people like my parents living in a rented council house, withdraw their pension pots when they retire as the monthly pension would be pretty small. So my mum got £42,000 on retirement and was the wealthiest she had ever been. And yes as you say she has got less well off since as she spends it to top up the state pension so she can pay heating bills, etc.

Oh where oh where is your humanity?

Your long list of assumptions is rather wonderful though.

As is your determined avoidance of the facts you actually have wrong.

@alltheapples

What? Rich bitch indeed. How very dare she? Apparently!

I can't begin to imagine what our friend the Actual Actuary would make of that!

@BambinaJAS pension age is now 68, not 65 years old. But anyway healthy life expectancy is far less.
And most of us older people have worked full-time since 16 years old. Whereas many middle-class young people enter full-time work now almost ten years later than we did.

And as someone who will have to work until 67, this only affects poorer people. All my middle-class friends retired already. It is poorer people in often more physical jobs who have to keep going as long as they can. I also know a few people in this situation on long term sick.

This means taxes will keep increasing for the working population to pay for the healthcare, pensions, and social care of the retired population

You do realise that those wealthy pensioners you so despise are also taxpayers?

They don't pay NI.

Which circles back to my original point.

If you wanted to fund NHS and Social Care, income tax was a far more equitable way of doing so because wealthy pensioners would also pay.

Right now they pay zero.

@MrsTommyS

I have a Meaco dehumidifier, it was quite expensive but is low energy to run and it has a 20 litre storage for water, there is a 12 litre one too. There are cheaper ones too. I've found that I don't actually need the that much water storage as I empty it after every use.

www.meacodehumidifiers.co.uk/products/meaco-20l-low-energy-platinum-dehumidifier-3-year-warranty-meaco20le?variant=14283987451971&currency=GBP

@BambinaJAS

They don't pay NI.

Which circles back to my original point.

If you wanted to fund NHS and Social Care, income tax was a far more equitable way of doing so because wealthy pensioners would also pay.

Right now they pay zero.

I suppose you are right if you keep your focus that narrow.

NI uplift/levee etc is obviously required because of the shocking state of the NHS and Social Care. Those that went before (ie all of us!) didn't pay enough and now we pay more.

But as your only issue is that it is those in employment required to pay and that pensioners who work won't (regardless of whether they are on the bones of their arse and working out of necessity or rich as Rockerfella and working for 'fun') then I don't get it.

They pay zero via NICs because they are already in receipt of the benefits NICs pay for.

They pay other taxes that also feed into the NHS - the new levy doesn't mean all other tax input into the running of the Health and Social will cease! They just won't pay the additional levy.

@BambinaJAS most 67-year-olds will have worked full-time for 51 years before retiring. It is far longer than the younger generation will who have gone to university.

And if you care about tax, tax second homes far more. Wales has introduced high council tax for them. And tax more capital gains from houses.

I don't think it pensioner bashing.
My parents have 500K plus in savings, mortgage free, final salary pensions. Yet are entitled to free travel and a fuel payment.

In what world can that be right?

Make them apply for the above, like low income families have to.

Nice for your parents that they have worked hard and are now comfortable in their older age. Pity you seem to resent it.

Not all older people have that luxury, no matter what the 'Boomer' ideology insists!

@BambinaJAS

Problem is, it isn't. Without immigration (bringing younger people into the working population) the UK is sitting on a demographic time bomb.

Last time I looked immigration was still allowed and still happening. What happens when those people get old and need care and a pension?

I don't resent it, i'm much better off TBH.

I resent their attitude. You think they should get free stuff, due to their age when people queue at food banks?

@wearingtheT

I don't think it pensioner bashing. My parents have 500K plus in savings, mortgage free, final salary pensions. Yet are entitled to free travel and a fuel payment.

In what world can that be right?

Make them apply for the above, like low income families have to.

It's right because it prevents a lot of admin costs to consider all the claims and enables pensioners who may be older and less able to access the help at the point of need. Last I looked you still need to apply for a bus pass. Your parents and other wealthy pensioners are 100% at liberty not to take these benefits - there are numerous charity appeals where they can donate their winter fuel payments to those in need.

@wearingtheT

I don't resent it, i'm much better off TBH.

I resent their attitude. You think they should get free stuff, due to their age when people queue at food banks?

I work in a food bank. I see all sorts of peole who you would never expect to need our help!

Their attitude? What, that they have paid in for decades and are now being given something that isn't means tested, that they may never use, might choose to give to a charity if not ticked being off for having it? It isn't means tested for a reason. They are entitled to it!

If you really are 'much better off' maybe you could do something productive with your ire - like volunteer somewhere?

Right now they pay zero

They don’t. They pay every penny of the cost of social care if they have more than £23.5k. Every penny.

@wearingtheT

I don't resent it, i'm much better off TBH.

I resent their attitude. You think they should get free stuff, due to their age when people queue at food banks?

No, we shouldn't need food banks - that only happens because of the selfish attitudes of people in this country who promote a race to the bottom. Our state pensions are not generous.

Any older person who had a mortgage or a higher income in the '80's or '90s benefited from the North Sea oil and gas windfall that the UK squandered.

I think it's entirely fair that they pay that back now both as income tax and inheritance tax.

We had the same amount of oil as Norway. They kept it state owned and saved the cash in a sovereign wealth fund worth $1trillion. Today that pays for most of their benefits and social care. They also have state supported fuel prices so no increases.

We sold it off for a song - £1.5b - and used the tax revenue to give breaks on mortgages and higher rate tax.

This boon to the wealthy has mostly fuelled house price rises.