To think this isn't very nice ? ( Pro-life protestors)

[chattycaterpillar]

I am pregnant, 11 weeks, first pregnancy. Like all first time mother's, I am very worried about miscarriage.

Anyway, my booking appointment was changed to a phone appointment cos I had Covid at the time of the appointment. The midwife arranged for me to come in today, ( a week or so after isolation finished), so I could get my bloods/ Blood Pressure/ urine sample done etc.

The maternity centre is based in a community hospital that has a variety of NHS Community/ outpatient services attached, ( acute/ emergency treatments are at the main hospital across town). But the community hospital has maternity outpatients, mental health teams, counselling, STI testing, audiology, physiotherapy , dermatology services attached to it. It also has BPAS abortion clinic inside, ( which I didn't realise until this morning).

Anyway , a short distance from the hospital, when I was going in, there were about 8 signs with the most horrific images , ( very large), of dead foetus's etc. I had a leaflet thrust in my hand and the images, well for someone worrying about miscarriage, they were very upsetting.

AIBU to say whilst I understand termination is a controversial issue, it's completely out of order to force these images on members of the public ?

The midwife who did my bloods etc said I wasn't the first person who'd been upset by it, and that there was also a recurrent miscarriage clinic being run at the hospital so she imagined it would cause a lot of upset.

Never mind a vulnurable teenager or rape victim walking into the BPAS clinic being forced to see these images ?

I got talking to a lady in the waiting room who said she had experienced a stillbirth a few months before and found being confronted by these images incredibly distressing.

Anything distracting from that - arguments about abortion regret, negative effects of abortion, abortion timelines, conditions which make abortion permissible - all of those things are a distraction and fodder for the forced birthers

This.

@SexyLittleNosferatu

I think it is clear that abortion, even if there is no long term mental health trauma, is not particularly pleasant for women

Why do you think that? What are you basing that comment on? The actual facts prove you wrong, as has already been mentioned, so I'm not sure why you think this?

Also, many things aren't particularly pleasant. Do you have strong opinions about these too?

Look I think the argument is getting confused.

The main thing is, I think these protests are distressing for everyone involved and should be stopped.

Erm, if you think not wanting to see pictures of dead babies thrust in my face on the way to a maternity appointment is an "agenda," then so be it

Not what I said but hey, nice bit of casual emoting.

You also said there are far too many abortions and that abortions cause trauma for women. Both stock arguments from forced birther campaigns.

Its not true that legal abortions cause trauma for most women.

Illegal abortions certainly may cause both trauma and risk to life so lets ensure all women have access to safe, legal abortion as the best way to reduce the potential trauma you claim to be worried about.

@C8H10N4O2

Erm, if you think not wanting to see pictures of dead babies thrust in my face on the way to a maternity appointment is an "agenda," then so be it

Not what I said but hey, nice bit of casual emoting.

You also said there are far too many abortions and that abortions cause trauma for women. Both stock arguments from forced birther campaigns.

Its not true that legal abortions cause trauma for most women.

Illegal abortions certainly may cause both trauma and risk to life so lets ensure all women have access to safe, legal abortion as the best way to reduce the potential trauma you claim to be worried about.

And I think access to safe, legal abortion can only be enhanced by getting rid of these protests and pictures.

If I felt upset seeing this, I can only imagine it would have been very distressing for someone arriving at the hospital to have an abortion.

Yes, obviously it would be better if we could get contraceptive education on point enough that abortions reduced.

I also think it would be good if we could get sexual health education on point enough that STI transmission reduces, but it doesn't mean I think people should hang around outside STI clinics harassing women who are coming into get STI and HIV treatment.

I think it is good for women if these protests and pictures were disallowed. I don't see how that is a controversial viewpoint.

@NrlySp

I’m pro-life and a Catholic. I massively disagree with the graphic posters being shown in the situation you describe. I think it’s counter productive and distressing. We need more education about the stages of development of the unborn baby and more open discussion about abortion regret - it isn’t spoken about enough.

No, we don't.

I think it is good for women if these protests and pictures were disallowed. I don't see how that is a controversial viewpoint

And as you well know - that wasn't the controversial viewpoint. Why did you need to bundle in completely nonsensical claims that there are too many abortions and most women are traumatised by abortion?

Its a stock tactic - find something your oponents will agree with (and you will not find many people who think those protests are a good thing) then use that to slip in something which is simply not true.

@C8H10N4O2

I think it is good for women if these protests and pictures were disallowed. I don't see how that is a controversial viewpoint

And as you well know - that wasn't the controversial viewpoint. Why did you need to bundle in completely nonsensical claims that there are too many abortions and most women are traumatised by abortion?

Its a stock tactic - find something your oponents will agree with (and you will not find many people who think those protests are a good thing) then use that to slip in something which is simply not true.

Oh for goodness sake, I'm not an expert in abortion. I've never pretended to be an expert in abortion or a doctor, nurse, counsellor who works in the field.

I don't have access to peer reviewed studies, I'm not a post-abortion counsellor, I don't know what percentage of women feel regret or not. Tbf, I was probably putting my own viewpoint on things there.

I don't think saying better contraceptive access means fewer abortions for women is a particularly controversial viewpoint.

As for the percentage of women who regret abortion, I honestly don't know.

I do know I found the pictures and protests distressing, it was clear from conversations in the waiting room at the maternity centre that someone else had been very triggered by these and lots of people were unhappy.

I don't know why you are unhappy with me for following up these points by saying it would be better if people who genuinely wanted to reduce abortion to focus on contraceptive education, better maternity benefits, stopping teenage sexual exploitation than upsetting, ( and I was upset), people at the local hospital.

I didn't realise that "pro-life," was offensive terminology either. I thought it was commonly phrased as "pro-life," "pro-choice." I thought they were generally accepted terms.

They are generally accepted terms. And they shouldn't be. I'm pro-life. Life is great. The lives of women are a particular focus because they are impacted by unwanted pregnancy. Life life life. So how come the misogynist forced birthers get that word? They shouldn't.

Anti-choice forced birthers. That's a term right there.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I didn't realise that "pro-life," was offensive terminology either. I thought it was commonly phrased as "pro-life," "pro-choice." I thought they were generally accepted terms.

They are generally accepted terms. And they shouldn't be. I'm pro-life. Life is great. The lives of women are a particular focus because they are impacted by unwanted pregnancy. Life life life. So how come the misogynist forced birthers get that word? They shouldn't.

Anti-choice forced birthers. That's a term right there.

In that case @MrsTerryPratchett it seems that anti abortion protestors might be the best term I could use to avoid causing offence ?

And BTW contraception fails. A lot.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/14/sunday-review/unplanned-pregnancies.html is brilliant.

There will always be unwanted pregnancies and therefore always a need for abortion. I trust women to make that decision for themselves. It's healthcare. Going to the dentist causes unpleasantness and even trauma. Unless you're talking about campaigning for free floss and toothpaste because of it, you are seeing abortion as somehow NOT being needed healthcare. Different in some way.

it seems that anti abortion protestors might be the best term I could use to avoid causing offence ?

Or misogynist arseholes? Either way.

@MrsTerryPratchett

And BTW contraception fails. A lot.

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/14/sunday-review/unplanned-pregnancies.html is brilliant.

There will always be unwanted pregnancies and therefore always a need for abortion. I trust women to make that decision for themselves. It's healthcare. Going to the dentist causes unpleasantness and even trauma. Unless you're talking about campaigning for free floss and toothpaste because of it, you are seeing abortion as somehow NOT being needed healthcare. Different in some way.

I see abortion as needed healthcare, think it should be available on the NHS. I never said otherwise.

Of course contraception fails, ( condom split, forgotten pills, dislodged coils etc), so abortion will always be needed.

My point was that better contraceptive education should reduce the abortion rate in the U.K, not that it will mean it's never needed.

And there's lots of public health campaigns, ( e.g sun safety advice to prevent having to undergo skin cancer treatment). Obviously we're not going to be able to persuade everyone to use suncream, ( and some who use suncream will get cancer anyway), but we at least try and educate about what minimises risk.

There's two things here:

1. Normalising abortion as healthcare, thus taking the wind out of the sails of the forced birthers
2. Doing everything we can to ensure as many women as possible don't reach the point of needing an abortion at all. For lessons on how to do this, look at the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries.

These two things must happen hand in hand. Meanwhile, calling the forced birthers out for what they are by using that term is useful.

It's disgusting. Targeted harassment should be a crime and treated harshly. The people who do this don't give a shite about the fetus they just hate women.

And there's lots of public health campaigns, ( e.g sun safety advice to prevent having to undergo skin cancer treatment). Obviously we're not going to be able to persuade everyone to use suncream, ( and some who use suncream will get cancer anyway), but we at least try and educate about what minimises risk.

You're equating cancer with abortion. They are NOT similar and conflating the two is worrying.

@MrsTerryPratchett

And there's lots of public health campaigns, ( e.g sun safety advice to prevent having to undergo skin cancer treatment). Obviously we're not going to be able to persuade everyone to use suncream, ( and some who use suncream will get cancer anyway), but we at least try and educate about what minimises risk.

You're equating cancer with abortion. They are NOT similar and conflating the two is worrying.

It's an example.

We want to educate people to prevent them contracting HIV. We understand some will contract HIV anyway, and still should provide NHS HIV treatment.

We want to educate people r.e. sun safety to prevent skin cancer. We understand some will contract skin cancer anyway, and still should provide skin cancer treatment on the NHS.

We want to educate people to get the HPV vaccine as it minimises the risk of contracting cervical cancer. We understand some people will contract cervical cancer anyway, and should still provide cervical cancer treatment on the NHS.

We educate children about tooth / dental hygiene, but accept some children will still need tooth decay/ extractions, and these ( should ), be provided on the NHS.

We also educate the dangers of smoking and provide smoking cessation help on the NHS, we still do and should provide COPD treatment on the NHS.

Then how is it controversial to say we can and should educate about contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy and termination, whilst understanding that this may reduce but not prevent all abortions, and still provide them on the NHS ? I don't understand the controversy.

Because conflating HIV/AIDS/cancer and abortion implies abortion is a dreadful disease that kills people. It's not. Except in countries that make it illegal. Then it is a deadly thing.

Frankly, I wonder if you are either actually anti-abortion or possibly one of those, 'I'm pro-choice but but but...' people.

No. As early as possible, as late as necessary. All completely the woman's choice.

I don't think the term 'anti abortion protester' is the right term to use. If these protesters truly disagreed with women being able to access abortion, they would be protesting outside Parliament buildings, trying to influence laws and policies around health care.

Protesting outside clinics which offer abortions (clinics which usually offer a vast range of other services) is simply an excuse to scream abuse at and intimidate women.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Because conflating HIV/AIDS/cancer and abortion implies abortion is a dreadful disease that kills people. It's not. Except in countries that make it illegal. Then it is a deadly thing.

Frankly, I wonder if you are either actually anti-abortion or possibly one of those, 'I'm pro-choice but but but...' people.

No. As early as possible, as late as necessary. All completely the woman's choice.

@MrsTerryPratchett i'm genuinely not trying to be rude , but do you understand my posts ?

I am not saying abortion should be illegal. I have repeatedly said it should continue to be legally accessible, via the NHS. I also think women shouldn't be harassed outside hospitals/ clinics.

No one is saying legal abortion kills people. Chlamydia doesn't kill people but we still have extensive public health campaigns advising people to use a condom to avoid contracting it, ( and out of the examples given, non-melanoma skin cancer, tooth decay and HIV are unlikely to cause immediate death in 21st century Britain).

I am pro-choice. I still understand that abortion is not fun, it is often physically and mentally difficult for women who experience it and think better contraceptive education could reduce the amount of women who go through a physically and mentally upsetting procedure.

Who wouldn't want to prevent women going through this unnecessarily ?

'm genuinely not trying to be rude , but do you understand my posts

I'm pretty sure I do. You start of by saying how awful the protesters are knowing that pretty much everyone but the most die hard forced birther will agree with you and then go on to give a litany of reasons as to why abortion is bad, that there are far too many abortions, that abortions cause women trauma and then by comparing abortion to cancer and HIV.

Call me an old cynic but that is exactly the pattern of boundary creep argument which is increasingly popular with forced birthers these day.

And yes, forced birther is the right terminology.

The other common feature is a lack of any mention of holding men accountable for their role and men taking more responsibility for the fact that every time they have sex with a woman they risk a pregnancy.

@C8H10N4O2

'm genuinely not trying to be rude , but do you understand my posts

I'm pretty sure I do. You start of by saying how awful the protesters are knowing that pretty much everyone but the most die hard forced birther will agree with you and then go on to give a litany of reasons as to why abortion is bad, that there are far too many abortions, that abortions cause women trauma and then by comparing abortion to cancer and HIV.

Call me an old cynic but that is exactly the pattern of boundary creep argument which is increasingly popular with forced birthers these day.

And yes, forced birther is the right terminology.

The other common feature is a lack of any mention of holding men accountable for their role and men taking more responsibility for the fact that every time they have sex with a woman they risk a pregnancy.

I wasn't saying safe, legal, regulated abortion killed people in the U.K. Of course it doesn't.

I was saying, just how some cancers and HIV can be reduced, ( not stopped completely), via public health education, ( e.g. condoms, sun safety, not smoking, not drinking excessively), unwanted pregnancy and abortion could also be reduced, ( not stopped completely), via contraceptive education.

And yes, I do very much think men should be held accountable for children they conceive.

I don't see how preventative education r.e contraception is a bad thing. Can you explain to me why you think it is ?

@MrsTerryPratchett

It's repulsive. I'd support an exclusion zone of about... 5000 miles around clinics to protect women.

That should do it.

Absolutely disgusting behaviour.

I don't see how preventative education r.e contraception is a bad thing. Can you explain to me why you think it is ?

None of which I actually said. Again. More whataboutery.

I note your failure to actually address any of the points regarding your claims of "too many abortions" and "abortions cause trauma for women"

We see you.

@C8H10N4O2, if abortion didn't cause any more trauma to women than any other medical procedure, why would all abortion providers in the U.K provide post-abortion counselling ?

www.msichoices.org.uk/other-services/counselling/

www.bpas.org/abortion-care/abortion-aftercare/

www.nupas.co.uk/abortion-aftercare-advice/

You can think abortion should be safe, legal and NHS funded, whilst still acknowledging it clearly can cause more emotional distress than other treatments, ( hence why providers have to provide post-abortion counselling). It is bordering on disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

It's downright disgusting. Definitely write to your MP & if contact community police. It's distressing for everyone & unnecessary.

I found it difficult when the Irish vote had many graphic images everywhere by the 'pro-life' parties & I didn't even have my dc with me.

Sorry you had to experience this. Congratulations to you & hope all goes well 💐