Has anyone refused to go back into the office?

[GreenPepperRed]

Just that really. Have a job that can easily be done working from home. Company is now saying compulsory 3 days in the office. Has anyone just not gone in and carried on working from home? How did that turn out?

The majority of my department is insisting they are not going in. Can confirm they are serious because I went in to the office a couple days back and there was probably 10% of the people in.

Intrigued what my company will do. Fire us all?

I haven’t had a London Allowance since… way last century. Is it still a thing?

Yes, still a thing some places.

@catgirl1976

It’s interesting

We are back in 3 / 4 days a week so I’m looking for another job as there is no justifiable reason. My role can be down (and has been done) perfectly well remotely

A blanket “you must be back in the office x days a week” runs the risk of indirect sex discrimination imo. However that’s not a fight I can be arsed to have so I’ll just get another job and vote with my feet as will my colleagues

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that this is indirect sex discrimination ffs? Talk about looking for shit that isn't there. If you were originally employed to work in 'x' place, then that's where you work, despite being able to do the job atop mount Everest/whilst caving/on a beach. WFH was temporary, and while I agree that it is a good thing for some, if it isn't for your employer, well tough; as you say, you can always vote with your feet

@Angliski

I’ve wfh for over 20 years for myself snd for various firms. Even when my contract was wfh, there was a reasonable expectation that I would come in for team meets, sometimes client stuff or just to be with others and share info. The problem with wfh experiences people had in the pandemic is that they don’t understand that that wasn’t a normal wfh experience. There is so much more to be gained from a wider pallet of options eg meeting half way, team days, meeting on client site or in a cafe. If your org have asked you to return to the office, it’s because they believe there are benefits to mixing, mingling…

If you don’t return… how will you train new colleagues? How will you help junior colleagues have a sense of team? How will you experience any org wide knowledge sharing? I think many people need to move from ‘I’ to ‘we’ again. If you don’t want to be part of something, work for yourself or find yourself an entirely remote role, but don’t take advantage of your social contract with your employer.

This is so well put and very insightful. I 100 per cent agree!

I agree that even when wfh there were still team meets but that isn't usually 3 days a week. I think I went to the office about a couple of times a month prior to the pandemic.

Now that electricity and gas are shooting through the roof I think you might find your company will start letting you all work from home more to reduce overheads 😉

Best comment here

@Notyourtypicalvirgo

Now that electricity and gas are shooting through the roof I think you might find your company will start letting you all work from home more to reduce overheads 😉

Quite the opposite. Keeping an empty building open/heated/lighted takes up the bulk of the bill. Having people plugged in and working are smaller additions

I really enjoy WFH and at the moment we still are doing it full time. The problem I have with it is that my colleagues are all using it as an excuse to do twice-daily school runs and not attend meetings as they're sorting out kids snacks/helping them with tasks/watching them do stuff etc.

They all say they're making up the time in the evening but I've seen no evidence of it (I'm often still logged on myself in the evening) and even if they were, we need support during the working day, not at night. It's causing a lot of resentment as those without kids are picking up all of the slack, attending all of the meetings and working extra hours to ensure the necessary work gets done.

Management are aware but are buying into the cries of sex discrimination that inevitably happen whenever they try to enforce these people doing their jobs. In future I suspect there'll be a lot of people trying to use WFH as a way of getting paid to look after their kids, because childcare is so expensive.

It drives me mad because it's piss-taking that'll see the benefit removed from everyone else as well.

Unpopular37 on MN the "sex discrimination" is a bit of a knee jerk pattern amongst those who haven't got what they want
On WFH it tends to start with the dinosaur/luddite insults, work its way through "contact the union/Acas", and then discrimination's tossed around in the hope that something - anything - will stick

Obviously these fallbacks are important and sometimes genuinely needed, but not necessarily because something just doesn't suit

@MabelsApron

I really enjoy WFH and at the moment we still are doing it full time. The problem I have with it is that my colleagues are all using it as an excuse to do twice-daily school runs and not attend meetings as they're sorting out kids snacks/helping them with tasks/watching them do stuff etc.

They all say they're making up the time in the evening but I've seen no evidence of it (I'm often still logged on myself in the evening) and even if they were, we need support during the working day, not at night. It's causing a lot of resentment as those without kids are picking up all of the slack, attending all of the meetings and working extra hours to ensure the necessary work gets done.

Management are aware but are buying into the cries of sex discrimination that inevitably happen whenever they try to enforce these people doing their jobs. In future I suspect there'll be a lot of people trying to use WFH as a way of getting paid to look after their kids, because childcare is so expensive.

It drives me mad because it's piss-taking that'll see the benefit removed from everyone else as well.

And so what if they are?

We have advanced so much in terms of technology that our outputs have dramatically increased since Henry ford introduced the 40 hour workweek, and unfortunately we haven't been compensated for this increase in productivity over the years.

Don't be a jobsworth, there's absolutely time in the day to do school pickups and it's better for everyone. Happier kids, happier parents and ultimately happier employers as it means parents are likely to stay in their jobs longer because of this increased flexibility.

I'm a manager myself and I couldn't care less if my team pop out to do school pickups, the work still gets done and I'm personally not paying them out of my own pocket.

I agree that people shouldn't be looking after children while working at home. I used nursery/after school clubs etc when my children were younger to make sure that I wasn't interrupted on a working day. It's not good enough to say the time will be made up in the evening. However, I think that could be made clear by managers rather than preventing work from home altogether.

I am still working from home part time (I have teens who are self sufficient during the working day) and am I CEV. I am much more productive than the other full timer and part timer in my team (who both have slightly younger kids as although they are back in the office part of the time now). They are forever having to leave early or start late to take X or Y to X or Y appointment or pick X or Y up early from school early as she or he are not well for 6th or 7th time this month or are working from home as its half term, they have a workman in to do this that or the other or they are waiting for a delivery etc.

I am working extra hard at home and have done since the start of the pandemic (as confirmed on the spreadsheets showing how much work we each all do) and as I am terrified to go back to the office and grateful to still be WFH, I am CEV and have an OH report supporting my WFH. Yet because of Pee takers who are continuing to work at home because they can skive off more. So I am also having to return to the office before the suggested return date of the OH report.

And so what if they are?

@notyourtypicalvirgo Erm, maybe re-read my second paragraph again?

@MabelsApron

And so what if they are?

@notyourtypicalvirgo Erm, maybe re-read my second paragraph again?

What is there to re-read? You're being overdramatic. I'm sure you're childless colleagues have coffee breaks longer than the school run that they don't declare or make up time for but that doesn't fit the agenda does it?!

Time to get with the times unfortunately and focus on output and deliverables rather than bum on seat time 🤷🏽‍♀️

It also sounds like you aren't being particularly accommodating to parents either. If you know people are likely to be doing the school runs you don't HAVE to schedule meetings at 3pm, the same discussion can be had at 2pm....just sounds like a load of spite for no reason

We have advanced so much in terms of technology that our outputs have dramatically increased since Henry ford introduced the 40 hour workweek, and unfortunately we haven't been compensated for this increase in productivity over the years.

Output doesn’t equal productivity.

One of the UK’s biggest economic issues is that we rank behind France, Germany, the US and other similar countries for productivity per hour worked which hasn’t budged in some 30 odd years. In 1960 we were the most productive in Europe.

Everyone has a responsibility to the next generation.how are the next generation of workers supposed to flourish when handed a laptop and told to work from their bedrooms? Your children now at school will be hitting the job market soon.Do you want that for them .Look at the other thread atm on MN whereby many young men are falling by the wayside and not leaving their rooms .'Shitlife Syndrome' its apparently called Absolutley frightening .WFH does not affect me .I was a nurse now retired but often wonder will those jobs in the public service become less attractive when most other workers can stay at home and earn their money and not have to get up early /do the commute etc.

@Porridgeislife

We have advanced so much in terms of technology that our outputs have dramatically increased since Henry ford introduced the 40 hour workweek, and unfortunately we haven't been compensated for this increase in productivity over the years.

Output doesn’t equal productivity.

One of the UK’s biggest economic issues is that we rank behind France, Germany, the US and other similar countries for productivity per hour worked which hasn’t budged in some 30 odd years. In 1960 we were the most productive in Europe.

Output is literally a product of productivity babe 🙄

Economics 101.....it's booked since the 70s far outstripping pay which is why CEO salaries are 50x larger than what they used to be but ordinary salaries have grown much less in comparison

The rewards for increased productivity and output have been hoovered up

*boomed

It also sounds like you aren't being particularly accommodating to parents either. If you know people are likely to be doing the school runs you don't HAVE to schedule meetings at 3pm, the same discussion can be had at 2pm....just sounds like a load of spite for no reason

I disagree. Most people wouldn't leave the office in the middle of the working day to collect the children and then bring them back to the office. I don't think people should treat working at home any differently. If you don't behave professionally when working at home it's inevitable that employers will ask everyone to go back to the office.

Output is literally a product of productivity babe 🙄

Cool story hon.

They’re not the same thing at all.

Here’s something that can explain it at primary school level for you

www.bls.gov/k12/productivity-101/content/what-is-productivity/why-does-productivity-change.htm

I'm a manager myself and I couldn't care less if my team pop out to do school pickups, the work still gets done and I'm personally not paying them out of my own pocket.

@Notyourtypicalvirgo - I agree with this. I schedule my mandatory meetings between 10am and 3pm. Couldn't care less if you do nursery / school runs during the work day. Don't even care if people aren't 'making up the time' in the evenings.

I'll go even further and say, as long as my team gets their work done, I don't give a crap how many hours they are working. Some people in my team are better at their jobs than others. I'm not going to have them sit behind their laptops for an extra hour a day because they NEED to be working 40 hours. What a waste of life.

@Notyourtypicalvirgo I’d have no argument with you if the work was being done, by everyone. It isn’t. You can call me overdramatic if that suits your narrative but no, we’re not taking 1 hour coffee breaks and no, we’re not scheduling meetings during the school run out of spite but because actual work needs to be done during the afternoon.

Why you think you know my work place better than I do is beyond me but crack on I guess.

[quote Porridgeislife]Output is literally a product of productivity babe 🙄

Cool story hon.

They’re not the same thing at all.

Here’s something that can explain it at primary school level for you

www.bls.gov/k12/productivity-101/content/what-is-productivity/why-does-productivity-change.htm[/quote]
I have a business degree where I studied economics lovely, can you say the same?

You're right in a sense that the correlation isn't iron clad because productivity can go down even if output increases which means you get more for the hours you are working which.....BINGO.....is the upside of technological advancement.

Back in the 80s you had to fly across the world to have a conference with Asia where as no we have VC.....that's a whole day saved. We now have email rather than relying just on postal services.....do I need to go into just how much more output you get from your time for that because I think it's pretty self explanatory....

But bottom line is that I mentioned OUTPUT in my original post which is all businesses really care about.

Speaking of productivity.....are you being productive right now getting spicy with me on Mumsnet? Is that not you wasting your employers time...? 😂

At least I'm on maternity leave and I don't have this issue....

@QuirkyTurtle

I'm a manager myself and I couldn't care less if my team pop out to do school pickups, the work still gets done and I'm personally not paying them out of my own pocket.

@Notyourtypicalvirgo - I agree with this. I schedule my mandatory meetings between 10am and 3pm. Couldn't care less if you do nursery / school runs during the work day. Don't even care if people aren't 'making up the time' in the evenings.

I'll go even further and say, as long as my team gets their work done, I don't give a crap how many hours they are working. Some people in my team are better at their jobs than others. I'm not going to have them sit behind their laptops for an extra hour a day because they NEED to be working 40 hours. What a waste of life.

I couldn't agree with you more 👏🏽

Here's hoping other managers get on board with this too....the workplace will be better for everyone as a result