Has anyone refused to go back into the office?

[GreenPepperRed]

Just that really. Have a job that can easily be done working from home. Company is now saying compulsory 3 days in the office. Has anyone just not gone in and carried on working from home? How did that turn out?

The majority of my department is insisting they are not going in. Can confirm they are serious because I went in to the office a couple days back and there was probably 10% of the people in.

Intrigued what my company will do. Fire us all?

Well, that’s down the pan if your only contact with your peers is a seeing them in the corner of a zoom call and at best an awkward periodic social meet-up

so you have hobbies and meet people locally instead. People are allowed to make friends away from work!

And it's probably better to avoid "major bants", TBH.

Are you bollocks working two extra hours a day because you aren’t commuting. Pull the other one

Just because you aren’t, doesn’t mean others are the same.

I work longer at home because I don’t lose 3.5 hours crammed onto trains where I can’t work.

I don’t follow this logic. If you want and need people to be in the office then you have to pay salaries for that location. You can’t make a threat of finding cheaper staff overseas - because that would still mean they’re not in person. Defeating the original argument.

Nope. If somebody launches a campaign to convince me that their role doesn’t require them to ever appear in person, they might just succeed. And, if they did, I might consider whether the business is better served by a different resource offshore, which is entirely logical.

For me, it’s about employees realising that employers have long been taking the piss actually long before covid. There’s a reason we have such poor productivity- it’s because our worker rights are right at the bottom compared to similar countries. People don’t feel valued at all.

Oh, here we go. Up the workers. Have you considered that poor productivity might, just might, be linked to our national tendency towards stroppiness and excuses?

Employers should actually be a bit more flexible and try and a) understand that it’s a shift after two years of remote working b) the experience of senior colleagues isn’t the same as those further down the chain c) you can have more flexible policies and still achieve in person working

Employers have been very flexible from where I am standing. The OP’s employer only wants her back in the office for three days a week, compared to full time pre-pandemic. What is that, if not flexibility? If her employer has noticed a downturn in productivity during the pandemic, they are entirely within their rights to require staff to return to the office for part of the week.

Your reference to ‘those further down the chain’ tends to mark you out as a disgruntled junior employee. Would you prefer your employer to let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, whilst still paying you the same salary, naturally, at the expense of its own commercial success and profitability? Would you be the first to complain if that led to reductions in staffing or pay freezes? I suspect that you would.

@CallyfromBlakes7

Well, that’s down the pan if your only contact with your peers is a seeing them in the corner of a zoom call and at best an awkward periodic social meet-up

so you have hobbies and meet people locally instead. People are allowed to make friends away from work!

And it's probably better to avoid "major bants", TBH.

As someone who trained as an accountant, the major bants was a key counter weight to the incredibly intense training! And you didn’t do it during work hours

Your reference to ‘those further down the chain’ tends to mark you out as a disgruntled junior employee. Would you prefer your employer to let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, whilst still paying you the same salary, naturally, at the expense of its own commercial success and profitability? Would you be the first to complain if that led to reductions in staffing or pay freezes? I suspect that you would

Ah, well sorry to disappoint you. I’m actually the head of a department with a team of 20. I treat my staff with respect.

We’ve had resistance to people coming back and I’ve worked with them and managed to get them back on a regular basis. Because I’m not a dick, I listen to my team.

Well, that has been happening over the last 2 years and there are people actively working towards most white collar jobs being done remotely.

People on this thread aren't arguing that everyone should work at home whether they want to or not though.

Some employers are selling their offices and moving to hot desking so yes, if a large number of employees choose to work from home, that has an effect on those who do want to come to the office.

If companies have realised that they can shutdown offices to save money because people are able to work at home they will do that anyway. Regardless, your desire to work in an office isn't more important than other people’s desire to work at home, particularly if the latter saves money .

@Iggly

I absolutely can argue that my team need to be in the office for part of the week to perform their jobs effectively. I manage the team. I notice when we’re working effectively and when we are not, and when we meet in person we solve complex problems much more quickly

Yes but you can’t then argue you’d outsource their job for cheaper (remote) labour as then how would you get them in?

You just need to be more flexible. You don’t own your staff!

When did I say that I owned my staff? You need to avoid over-dramatising, because it weakens your argument. I can decide how my own team works best, though, and that involves some time spent working together in the office.

And, as I point out upthread, if any member of my team came up with a convincing argument for why they should never travel to any kind of office, ever, or interact with their colleagues in person, ever, I’d be considering why I needed to pay a U.K. salary for someone we never saw.

@Iggly

Your reference to ‘those further down the chain’ tends to mark you out as a disgruntled junior employee. Would you prefer your employer to let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, whilst still paying you the same salary, naturally, at the expense of its own commercial success and profitability? Would you be the first to complain if that led to reductions in staffing or pay freezes? I suspect that you would

Ah, well sorry to disappoint you. I’m actually the head of a department with a team of 20. I treat my staff with respect.

We’ve had resistance to people coming back and I’ve worked with them and managed to get them back on a regular basis. Because I’m not a dick, I listen to my team.

You’re a head of department (although I dread to think in what) and you use phrases like ‘those further down the chain’ and drama queen language when discussing working practices? I pity your employers.

@CallyfromBlakes7

I always think it's weird that people think WFH means perching on the end of a bed in your shared house bedroom. There are plenty of other options including co-working, and nothing stops you going into your employer office if you want to.

I don't know why this polarises people so much. Employers who are flexible have the most committed employees and the best results.

Co-working has to be paid for. Are twentysomethings struggling with expensive rents and student loans going to do that?

And employers are being flexible. The OP’s employer is asking for three days per week. I don’t think we’ve heard from anyone who is insisting that their team go back full time, just because.

I worked from home originally 2 days a week, moving to full time way before the pandemic hit.

On a global employee call (17,000 worldwide) they annouced 'We will never go back to the old way of working...' So they intend to continue closing offices where appropriate and leaving just main offices in major cities. The majority of the workforce will be home based.

You call me a drama Queen?

Ok then 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m not being a drama queen to point out that employer rights in this country are shite. They are. Employees have got plenty to moan about.

You can be as rude as you like, when I didn’t fit your little narrative in your head, but my approach is to treat people with respect and like adults and you’ll get good results. People are resisting returning to the office. I would take the time to listen and understand why - most people are reasonable and can be reasoned with.

Treat them like commodities and they’ll resist. Or, as you call it “strop”.

@DottyHarmer

Absolutely. I have a ds in his early 20s. Wfh is not popular in the least with him or his friends from home and university.

One of his friends is training with a big accountancy firm. All wfh. All training and audit files done from home. In the past the arid nature of the training was offset by being able to roam round various clients with your fellow trainees and, of course, major bants/hook ups/ romances and friendships etc etc. Well, that’s down the pan if your only contact with your peers is a seeing them in the corner of a zoom call and at best an awkward periodic social meet-up.

As somebody who also trained in a big four firm, I absolutely agree. Client visits are where you learn how things are really done, how businesses work, how to behave around clients, how to assess evidence thoroughly and how audits are conducted. And they are loads of fun when you work with, and sometimes stay away with, your peers and managers.

I’d have hated doing that from home, with only zoom calls for company.

I’m not being a drama queen to point out that employer rights in this country are shite

Did you mean ‘employee rights’? And yes, it does sound a bit drama queeny, sorry. Our rights as employees are much better than those of people working in the USA, for example.

And employers are being flexible. The OP’s employer is asking for three days per week. I don’t think we’ve heard from anyone who is insisting that their team go back full time, just because

How is it flexible? They are literally dictating it. Are they phasing people back in? Looking at flexible working requests? Or just “telling” people? I suspect that’s why they’re resisting.

In my office, we also have a minimum of 3 days but we are being flexible about days and also getting people to ramp back up to 3 days. Not insisting on it from day 1. It is a shift especially after being home based for so long.

There’s also a cynicism that senior staff don’t trust their staff, and that’s why they really want them back. And that management attitude will come through and staff can feel it.

@Iamthewombat

I’m not being a drama queen to point out that employer rights in this country are shite

Did you mean ‘employee rights’? And yes, it does sound a bit drama queeny, sorry. Our rights as employees are much better than those of people working in the USA, for example.

You’ve picked a shitty country to compare us to.

You said ‘similar countries’. Would you like to pay similar tax to France, Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, to guarantee the employee (not employer, although I’m guessing that was your mistake) rights you say that you are so keen on?

@Iamthewombat

You said ‘similar countries’. Would you like to pay similar tax to France, Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, to guarantee the employee (not employer, although I’m guessing that was your mistake) rights you say that you are so keen on?

Yes I would actually although. They’re certainly more civilised.

@Iggly

And employers are being flexible. The OP’s employer is asking for three days per week. I don’t think we’ve heard from anyone who is insisting that their team go back full time, just because

How is it flexible? They are literally dictating it. Are they phasing people back in? Looking at flexible working requests? Or just “telling” people? I suspect that’s why they’re resisting.

In my office, we also have a minimum of 3 days but we are being flexible about days and also getting people to ramp back up to 3 days. Not insisting on it from day 1. It is a shift especially after being home based for so long.

There’s also a cynicism that senior staff don’t trust their staff, and that’s why they really want them back. And that management attitude will come through and staff can feel it.

You’re doing it again: whining about ‘management’ and ‘senior staff’. Which tells me very clearly that you aren’t particularly senior yourself and value your popularity with junior people over the needs of the business.

(If it is a business, that is; I’m getting public sector vibes from your posts).

And yes, I said employer when I meant to say employee.

Sorry

You’re doing it again: whining about ‘management’ and ‘senior staff’. Which tells me very clearly that you aren’t particularly senior yourself and value your popularity with junior people over the needs of the business

Nope not public sector. Although used to be! It’s not about popularity, it’s about treating people as people and with respect.

Nope I am very senior.

I’m just one of those people who see those who treat their teams as commodities and think it’s a bit sad really. What are they trying to prove…? It’s all a bit faux macho.

Yes I would actually although. They’re certainly more civilised.

So you say! I suspect that when higher rate tax increased by 5% (which is what it would take to guarantee benefits at the same levels of some of those countries) you’d be the first to complain.

Also, be careful what you wish for. The group I work for has an Argentinian entity. It is impossible to fire staff there, even if they are incompetent or even fraudulent. Is that what you would like here, with your stated fondness for employee rights? You haven’t even said what specifically you think is worse in the U.K. compared with your personally-chosen set of ‘similar countries’.

@Iggly

You’re doing it again: whining about ‘management’ and ‘senior staff’. Which tells me very clearly that you aren’t particularly senior yourself and value your popularity with junior people over the needs of the business

Nope not public sector. Although used to be! It’s not about popularity, it’s about treating people as people and with respect.

Nope I am very senior.

I’m just one of those people who see those who treat their teams as commodities and think it’s a bit sad really. What are they trying to prove…? It’s all a bit faux macho.

You are hilarious. All the silly virtue signalling. You have no idea about the priorities of a modern business. You manage a team of 20 and claim to be ‘very senior’, yet you moan about ‘cynicism about management’. It doesn’t add up. As above, I feel sorry for your employers.

@Iamthewombat

Yes I would actually although. They’re certainly more civilised.

So you say! I suspect that when higher rate tax increased by 5% (which is what it would take to guarantee benefits at the same levels of some of those countries) you’d be the first to complain.

Also, be careful what you wish for. The group I work for has an Argentinian entity. It is impossible to fire staff there, even if they are incompetent or even fraudulent. Is that what you would like here, with your stated fondness for employee rights? You haven’t even said what specifically you think is worse in the U.K. compared with your personally-chosen set of ‘similar countries’.

I earn enough to be able to afford extra taxes.

I would prefer a more equitable tax system because it benefits us all. A country with a healthy well educated population will have a stronger economy better able to weather any storms that come its way.

Don’t forget, those employee rights impact you too.

Employment rights are about putting in place protections to give employees decent working conditions and provide a framework for employers when things go wrong. I’m not sure why you think the US, with its woeful maternity provision, woeful annual leave provision, is such a beacon to be honest.

Stop trying to denigrate me because I don’t share your values. You’ve tried to suggest I’m some sort of bitter junior worker, you’ve tried to suggest I don’t know how to do my job, you’ve suggested all sorts of nonsense. I disagree with you and there’s no more to be said. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Iggly flexible working requests are completely different from working from home.

All employees have the rights to make one statutory application a year for a permanent change to their contract, I believe, although employers also have the right to refuse them.

How many times do posters who work with, or manage, younger people have to explain that none of those younger people, in their experience, want to work from home most of the time? That, in fact, they want to work from an office for at least part of the week and that their work/life balance has been impaired by working from shared housing or a bedroom at their parents’ house? Post after post saying the same thing, but no, you know best.

@Iamthewombat
OK? Their opinions / posts are anecdotal, as are mine. I specified in the post you quoted that some people want it and others don't, some industries allow it and others don't.

I'm not claiming that I know best, I've specified multiple times that it's purely anecdotal based on experience, and that this is an impossible discussion because everyone will be coming in from different walks of life and experiences.

For someone who keeps pointing out other people are 'resorting to insults', you are coming across incredibly condescending and unkind. I'm not really interested in hearing your response because you're clearly not interested in any kind of meaningful debate. None of your posts have been particularly constructive, and you're only attacking and singling out certain posts / people that don't agree with you.