Could EUPD come under the neuro diverse umbrella?

[UndertheCedartree]

I have been to a neuro diversity conference today. One thing that came up was that Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (BPD) should be categorised as a neuro developmental disorder like Autism. I found this so interesting as I've often thought the same. There is so much cross over between EUPD and other disorders like ASD and ADHD, for example many of the differences in the brain are the same, impulsiveness and black and white thinking can happen in EUPD and ADHD/Autism.

I would love to hear from anyone who has experience of these disorders what you think?

I thought personality disorders were the result of early experiences?

I think a lot of girls and women with autism are misdiagnosed with EUPD/BPD, and tbh I think the disorder is used largely as a stick to beat women with. Rather than lumping it in as a neurodevelopmental disorder, they need to get the diagnoses right to begin with.

@cuno

I think a lot of girls and women with autism are misdiagnosed with EUPD/BPD, and tbh I think the disorder is used largely as a stick to beat women with. Rather than lumping it in as a neurodevelopmental disorder, they need to get the diagnoses right to begin with.

I stopped myself from saying that, but, yes, this.

I don't believe it exists. The diagnostic criteria for it matches the diagnostic criteria exactly for the age old hysteria or 'walking womb syndrome' from 100 years ago. It is a diagnosis given to mostly women who are struggling with trauma who are told their personality is to blame for how they are feeling. They are often given medication which then suppresses the behaviour they show thus fitting the narrative. Then meaning that woman's voice also can't be credible. It is pure misogyny.

There is a new book out in just over a week about it - Sexy but psycho that is all about the misogyny behind these labels.

Women definitely get misdiagnosed but you know BPD when you see it in someone for real, particularly with how it affects interpersonal relationships.

Men also suffer from it, it's not just women. Men tend to get easily labelled with autism and women with BPD though and there is a lot of crossover.

@Thoosa

I thought personality disorders were the result of early experiences?

I only really know about EUPD. The thinking is it is caused by differences in the brain combined with an invalidating environment growing up.

I agree that a lot of women are misdiagnosed.

@cuno

I think a lot of girls and women with autism are misdiagnosed with EUPD/BPD, and tbh I think the disorder is used largely as a stick to beat women with. Rather than lumping it in as a neurodevelopmental disorder, they need to get the diagnoses right to begin with.

I know that women can get misdiagnosed. However, there are differences in the criteria so I don't believe all women should be diagnosed with autism rather than EUPD (as the criteria for both disorders currently stands).

No I don't believe it to be a neuro-developmental disorder. There are crossovers in traits but EUPD results from early childhood experience and trauma. I have heard it said that there is new research that suggests it is a sub-category of PTSD rather than a disorder in its own right - that I CAN believe.
I have EUPD and I hate the label - I mean being having an actual disorder with your personality is pretty horrible, but I have to reluctantly agree that the shoe fits.

I think the problem is that BPD is understudied. The stigma attached makes no-one wants to work with the condition, hence the name changes and more recently the same symptoms being diagnosed as different conditions (namely bipolar 2 and cPTSD), plus the comorbidity with autism and/or adhd.

Honestly, I think trying to put mental illness/conditions into neat boxes causes more harm than good, and what really matters is what causes these things in the first place. Only in knowing that can such things be treated and/or accepted.

From my knowledge it has always been assumed that BPD is part biological, part environmental. The biology provides the switch and the environment flicks the switch on.

My worry would be that if BPD was classified as a type of neurodiversity the little help we do get with treatment would be withdrawn, because "we are born this way", which won't help the majority of BDP sufferers cope with the trauma they faced in childhood.

I'm not saying all women diagnosed with EUPD/BPD are autistic. But I am saying a lot of autistic women are diagnosed with EUPD/BPD instead of autism as the diagnostic criteria for autism favours men. I would argue most women diagnosed with BP have simply experienced trauma and not autistic, and reacting to that perfectly naturally but in a way that is deemed "wrong" by a patriarchal society, so it is then medicalised to put women in their place.

*BPD

Why not put everything under the neurodiverse umbrella and realise that humans are a diverse bunch.

The change of name from BPD to EUPD did not alter the stigma. The vast majority of people with this diagnosis have been through extreme trauma and often, end up re-traumatised by their experiences in the mental health system.
I don’t think it hugely matters what they name it. Women presenting in a certain way will be stigmatised regardless unless there is a huge change in the way certain behaviours are viewed.

@Awalkintime

I don't believe it exists. The diagnostic criteria for it matches the diagnostic criteria exactly for the age old hysteria or 'walking womb syndrome' from 100 years ago. It is a diagnosis given to mostly women who are struggling with trauma who are told their personality is to blame for how they are feeling. They are often given medication which then suppresses the behaviour they show thus fitting the narrative. Then meaning that woman's voice also can't be credible. It is pure misogyny.

There is a new book out in just over a week about it - Sexy but psycho that is all about the misogyny behind these labels.

Could you say more about the criteria for hysteria? I just had a look and while perhaps superficially some match, the actual symptoms of EUPD are different and more complex. Trauma is known to be present in most women with EUPD. A personality disorder actually doesn't mean anything to do with your personality. It is about how someone thinks and feels, and how you react to others. Medication can be used for symptoms the gold standard treatment is DBT. What do you mean by fitting the narrative? Why can't women's voices be credible?

Sorry for all the questions! I'm interested, that's all!

No. Neurodiversity e.g. autism, dyspraxia are the way people are born. People aren’t born with a personality disorder. I agree personally doesn’t fit that well into mental health but it doesn’t fit at all into neurodiversity

@User135644

Women definitely get misdiagnosed but you know BPD when you see it in someone for real, particularly with how it affects interpersonal relationships.

Men also suffer from it, it's not just women. Men tend to get easily labelled with autism and women with BPD though and there is a lot of crossover.

As the criteria currently stands there is crossover with Autism, but yes not exactly the same. Autistic people also have problems with inter personal relationships. What do you think are the differences?

Some think EUPD is just cPTSD. I wonder if EUPD is Autism with an invalidating environment and/or trauma?

@Thoosa

I thought personality disorders were the result of early experiences?

That's what I thought too.

Oh and yes men can get diagnosed with EUPD but often seem to get Anti-social PD instead.

I think a lot of people are diagnosed with EUPD when really they have a neurodiversity and a mental health condition or trauma as well. I say that as a women with ADHD and then trauma who was the victim of misdiagnosis as EUPD and bipolar

@Svadhyaya

No I don't believe it to be a neuro-developmental disorder. There are crossovers in traits but EUPD results from early childhood experience and trauma. I have heard it said that there is new research that suggests it is a sub-category of PTSD rather than a disorder in its own right - that I CAN believe. I have EUPD and I hate the label - I mean being having an actual disorder with your personality is pretty horrible, but I have to reluctantly agree that the shoe fits.

Yes, trauma is certainly key. But EUPD is not just about childhood experiences but there are differences in the brain. That's why I wondered about Autism plus trauma. By the way, EUPD doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your personality. It is about the way you think, feel and react. This can be changed.

@GCITC

I think the problem is that BPD is understudied. The stigma attached makes no-one wants to work with the condition, hence the name changes and more recently the same symptoms being diagnosed as different conditions (namely bipolar 2 and cPTSD), plus the comorbidity with autism and/or adhd.

Honestly, I think trying to put mental illness/conditions into neat boxes causes more harm than good, and what really matters is what causes these things in the first place. Only in knowing that can such things be treated and/or accepted.

From my knowledge it has always been assumed that BPD is part biological, part environmental. The biology provides the switch and the environment flicks the switch on.

My worry would be that if BPD was classified as a type of neurodiversity the little help we do get with treatment would be withdrawn, because "we are born this way", which won't help the majority of BDP sufferers cope with the trauma they faced in childhood.

There certainly so much ignorance around EUPD and it should be studied more. However there are lots of things we do know.

So the biological part is the differences in the brain. These seem very similar of not the same as those seen in ND disorders. Then the environmental bit is growing up in an invalidating environment. We also know trauma is almost always present. So part comes from the way we are born already. But I take your point. I just think if it did come under that umbrella it would actually bring better treatment as ND is less stigmatised. I certainly think DBT would be great for those with ASD.

@UndertheCedartree are those differences in the brain not caused by the trauma though?
I know - I was referring to the label "personality disorder" and what this implies.
Out of interest, are you a mental health professional?

@NorthSouthcatlady

No. Neurodiversity e.g. autism, dyspraxia are the way people are born. People aren’t born with a personality disorder. I agree personally doesn’t fit that well into mental health but it doesn’t fit at all into neurodiversity

Except the differences in the brain people with EUPD are born with are really similar.

UndertheCedartree
In DSM 5 (The disagnostic manual for mental health) states the same criteria for it as DSM 2 did for hysteria. Trauma would be present as that what would cause the behaviour not the label. What I mean by fitting the narrative is that women show behaviour that is erratic or out of what 'well behaved women' should present like in society. When they are diagnosed and medicated, the medication dopes them so their behaviour changes and then someone will say, like it was that after all.

If a deer ran away from a fox we wouldn't say they are mentally ill and had some disorder causing erratic behaviour when triggered.

I'd look at the work of Dr Jessica Taylor and mental health. It is eye opening about how women are diagnosed with this when they've been raped or suffered DV. It is horrific what she is uncovering.