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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

851 replies

suggestedlogin · 20/02/2022 11:57

I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

OP posts:
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5
IamtheDevilsAvocado · 21/02/2022 10:53

At our school, our tasks as the brighter kids was to 'avoid getting pregnant' whilst at school. The less able, they were left to working in the local factories... Nothing at all wrobf with this, but many many of them would have managed better paying, more interesting careers if any opportunities had been afforded them

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 21/02/2022 11:00

Unfortunately my DD is in with a bad crowd at school who clown around in class, turn up late to every class etc. My DD is capable of so much more, I myself am currently studying at university, my DH has a good job that he went to college to get several qualifications for etc. it may seem stereotypical but the girls she is in with all come from a line of families who are not interested in the importance of education (I know the families personally) so it seems like an ever repeating cycle, I worry my DD is also going to go down that path but I am supporting her to see all the opportunities available to her

Tynetime · 21/02/2022 11:04

WC family here and out of the 6 of us 3 are university educated and almost all had good or white collar jobs/ careers. Our parents did instill the value of education and no doubt made huge sacrifices to ensure we had uniforms etc.
I guess we are now middle class as DH has a professional role. I do now fear that student loans will put off kids from poorer backgrounds from going to University. My dd will be saddled with less debt than poorer students as her max loans are lower. The maintenance doesn't even cover 1/2 of her halls bill so we will top her up.

TheMoth · 21/02/2022 11:28

I fear that uni is going to price a lot of kids out again.
I was first in my family to go. Late 90s. Dh left school at 18.
We earn about 70 between us , before tax, which puts us on paper, in a very fortunate position. But the mortgage and bills take most of it, so there will be nothing left to help dc with uni. Which means they well end up not going. I know it's not the be all and end all, but it does seem odd that I was in a better position 25 years ago, with much poorer parents.

SweetFelicityArkright · 21/02/2022 11:49

I've actually found this thread quite interesting in that the reasons for people having low aspirations and therefore ending up in low paid, low regarded jobs are discussed, and no one has really considered that maybe we need those jobs for society, business and services to function, to create the opportunities for those who want to and are able to do better, to do so, and that they are not valued for the contribution that they are making.

Those roles are pretty much written off, yet are essential to getting the actual work done, there's no point having a manager if they've got no one to manage because everyone is at the same level, someone is still needed to do the work that supports the whole thing.
I'm not saying that no one that is poor shouldn't have aspirations or be discouraged from achieving them, more that maybe we should be valuing and respecting the work of those at the bottom, in the lower paid jobs more, as much as those at the top and everyone in between, and not using their low aspirations as a reason to pay low wages and have little respect for them.
I work for nmw, I actually really like the job I do, I'm good at it and I am contributing to society, unfortunately although I am not really bothered about a massive house and Carribbean cruise every year, meeting the cost of living is an issue, the basics and a little more that makes life worth living and I am by and large looked down upon, seen as uninspired and having low or no aspirations and therefore less worthy of respect than the owner of the business I work in, where my time and skills make them money, but they choose how much of that I get.

Maybe alongside looking at the reasons why those from poor backgrounds are less aspirational than those from more affluent backgrounds (because it does highlight the inequality that exists and that is the first step in addressing that) we could be looking at why we value some people more than others, based on whether they went to university or not, or the content of their wage.

LittleBoPeepHasLostHerShit · 21/02/2022 11:55

Your question is a bit like asking why most children of Christian parents don't usually go and research different religions (the information is out there!) and decide to become Muslims or Hindus instead.

rambleonplease · 21/02/2022 11:57

This is thread is so depressing and just sad. How do we dig ourselves out of this class ridden mess. The reality of living in poverty is just horrendous and for many people on this thread, finding a way out of that cycle was often impossible! Especially when you compare to those with the proverbial silver spoon. The injustice just sucks. How do we change this?

Noisyneighneigh · 21/02/2022 11:58

@Itshothothot

Im from a poor council background. The opportunity wasn't there for us to gain much qualifications. I did one year at college and thats it!

I was given the opportunity to go onto a higher level but had to do another 2 years at college, however my mum wanted about £25 a week board money and i didn't have that so i couldn't progress onto the next level. I had to get a job. ANY OLD JOB. Ended up in low paid jobs for years.

No money to move out as i were paying board and on a crap wage (i think it was £3.60 an hour back then for under 21s)

It was only when i met dh that i managed to escape poverty.

Growing up in poverty is shit. I had years of depression which i believe is due to it. Shoes didn't fit properly, no opportunities to better yourself etc.

Schools were crap in our area, my mum couldn't be arsed to attend parents evening as the school was a 40 min walk away and we didn't have a car.

Homework never done, it was never checked by my mum.

I left school with appalling G.C.S.E’s and my mum wasn't bothered. I remember sitting with a tutor crying at college begging her to let me do a level 2 childcare course (you had to have certain G.C.S.Es) i didn't have the minimum requirement to do it.

They actually let me do it! I got a distinction in that course (the highest level you could get) but i couldn't go onto the next level due to the board money i was expected to pay.

It used to really annoy me that she had children when she couldn't afford to give them a good life.

Sounds like she was utterly disinterested. Once you get educated or even just more money your idea of a "good" life changes. I think WC people are more likely to have children because they want them and think loved and fed is enough. They're more laid back about it and if they haven't seen a very high standard of living are more content with a lower one. I don't mean poverty necessarily just much fewer luxuries.

MC people are very keen obviously to keep the standard of living they grew up with and give their children the same opportunities and experiences they had. That takes much more money and usually means fewer children. I've noticed that MC mums on here seem to think it's a bit abusive to make children share rooms.

When a WC child enters the middle classes, they see the different values, the higher standard of living and think why didn't my parents do that for me or prioritise this or that for me? We'd have had more money if they hadn't spent on this that. It can lead them to judge their parents very harshly

TottersBlankly · 21/02/2022 12:03

low paid, low regarded jobs are discussed … no one has really considered that maybe we need those jobs for society, business and services to function,

But, in the ideal society that this thread is surely looking towards, people would be able to choose the level of work they want to do. (And truly low-skilled jobs would be outsourced to robots / AI.)

What we have at the moment is a situation where a large proportion of those in low skill poorly paid jobs would be doing something else if they were able to. If knowledge or money or support had been available at the points where they had to make choices.

Shortbread49 · 21/02/2022 12:10

This is very interesting I think because you don’t know what is available until you meet people who do different things to you. I went to a not very good comprehensive (left 1987) and university was not a concept which existed as they had closed the sixth form. The aim was to get you on YTS scheme. I only found out what it as when I went to the sixth form in grammar school and my parents were very against it, provided no support and actively sabotaged my education. I think you need two things information about what is out there and supportive people helping and pushing you

sst1234 · 21/02/2022 12:14

@Itshothothot

Im from a poor council background. The opportunity wasn't there for us to gain much qualifications. I did one year at college and thats it!

I was given the opportunity to go onto a higher level but had to do another 2 years at college, however my mum wanted about £25 a week board money and i didn't have that so i couldn't progress onto the next level. I had to get a job. ANY OLD JOB. Ended up in low paid jobs for years.

No money to move out as i were paying board and on a crap wage (i think it was £3.60 an hour back then for under 21s)

It was only when i met dh that i managed to escape poverty.

Growing up in poverty is shit. I had years of depression which i believe is due to it. Shoes didn't fit properly, no opportunities to better yourself etc.

Schools were crap in our area, my mum couldn't be arsed to attend parents evening as the school was a 40 min walk away and we didn't have a car.

Homework never done, it was never checked by my mum.

I left school with appalling G.C.S.E’s and my mum wasn't bothered. I remember sitting with a tutor crying at college begging her to let me do a level 2 childcare course (you had to have certain G.C.S.Es) i didn't have the minimum requirement to do it.

They actually let me do it! I got a distinction in that course (the highest level you could get) but i couldn't go onto the next level due to the board money i was expected to pay.

It used to really annoy me that she had children when she couldn't afford to give them a good life.

This is coming straight from someone who experienced low aspiration in the family. Yet people will fall over themselves to make excuses for lazy parents. Yes, there is such a thing as lazy and uninterested. It’s not always someone’s else’s fault. People have choices and when they make bad ones for their children, they do need to be held to account. Grown adults having child after child and using every excuse under the sun to not avail opportunities for them is plain lazy. Cue the excuses.
sst1234 · 21/02/2022 12:16

@Shortbread49

This is very interesting I think because you don’t know what is available until you meet people who do different things to you. I went to a not very good comprehensive (left 1987) and university was not a concept which existed as they had closed the sixth form. The aim was to get you on YTS scheme. I only found out what it as when I went to the sixth form in grammar school and my parents were very against it, provided no support and actively sabotaged my education. I think you need two things information about what is out there and supportive people helping and pushing you
Once upon a time this was very true. Now less so. People spend hours on social media with the whole world unfolding right in front of their eyes. Their is more awareness and choice than there ever was and far less excuse for letting your children fall into a cycle of low aspiration.
RidingMyBike · 21/02/2022 12:20

It was an eye opener when we looked round primary schools for reception admission. We decided against the closest one, which was in quite a poor area, partly because it didn't have a school library and there wasn't much evidence of books in classrooms. I mentioned this at a toddler group whilst several of us were discussing primary choices (so this is a group of mums who cared enough to get their kids to a toddler group every week). One mum was very resentful of what I said - turned out there were two older siblings at that school and it had an outdoor swimming pool so was therefore fantastic. She had no idea a school library was even a thing. The outdoor swimming pool meant a weekly lesson in the summer term each year, that was it.

The school we did choose had a library but had to mainly source books via donation, which meant there were a lot of the limited range of kids' books you can buy in supermarkets, but not much breadth in terms of exposing children to a wide range of books, both fiction and non-fiction. If you don't have the knowledge to help your kid read more widely or the access to books then that won't happen.

Primary school in new location (we've moved) is also in a deprived area but has the most amazing school library and DD has come home with a really diverse range of books from it.

x2boys · 21/02/2022 12:30

@RidingMyBike

It was an eye opener when we looked round primary schools for reception admission. We decided against the closest one, which was in quite a poor area, partly because it didn't have a school library and there wasn't much evidence of books in classrooms. I mentioned this at a toddler group whilst several of us were discussing primary choices (so this is a group of mums who cared enough to get their kids to a toddler group every week). One mum was very resentful of what I said - turned out there were two older siblings at that school and it had an outdoor swimming pool so was therefore fantastic. She had no idea a school library was even a thing. The outdoor swimming pool meant a weekly lesson in the summer term each year, that was it.

The school we did choose had a library but had to mainly source books via donation, which meant there were a lot of the limited range of kids' books you can buy in supermarkets, but not much breadth in terms of exposing children to a wide range of books, both fiction and non-fiction. If you don't have the knowledge to help your kid read more widely or the access to books then that won't happen.

Primary school in new location (we've moved) is also in a deprived area but has the most amazing school library and DD has come home with a really diverse range of books from it.

Well swimming is a life skill so I think dismissing it is a bit patronising It's great that your child's school has a fantastic library ,but how do you know the mother doesn't have book shelfs full of diverse reading matter at home People have different interests
Gwenhwyfar · 21/02/2022 12:33

"Well swimming is a life skill so I think dismissing it is a bit patronising
It's great that your child's school has a fantastic library ,but how do you know the mother doesn't have book shelfs full of diverse reading matter at home
People have different interests"

Well, I think the point is not to criticise the school someone you're talking to has children in because it's obvious they may not take it well. I remember someone saying the school near where I lived was good. I just nodded my head and stopped myself mentioning the inspection reports.

Bringsexyback · 21/02/2022 12:35

I think it’s quite hilarious that people are basing their choice of primary school on a library that is funded and stock to buy donations from supermarkets.
Personally I’d want to see the tech stack and who they are employing that understands how to use any of it.

RidingMyBike · 21/02/2022 12:39

I had no idea she had two kids at the school. She was at the toddler group with two toddlers and a baby and had never mentioned the older kids until then, and the rest of us were first time mums!

I have no idea if that mum had books at home or not. But it's been very noticeable when going round to other kids' houses for parties and when househunting that many homes don't have any books around at all.

Swimming is on the national curriculum and they can bus them to the nearest local pool (lots of other schools were doing this). I doubt anyone is getting a coach from school to a library.

SweetFelicityArkright · 21/02/2022 12:47

@TottersBlankly

low paid, low regarded jobs are discussed … no one has really considered that maybe we need those jobs for society, business and services to function,

But, in the ideal society that this thread is surely looking towards, people would be able to choose the level of work they want to do. (And truly low-skilled jobs would be outsourced to robots / AI.)

What we have at the moment is a situation where a large proportion of those in low skill poorly paid jobs would be doing something else if they were able to. If knowledge or money or support had been available at the points where they had to make choices.

If those low skilled, poorly paid and poorly respected jobs were actually better paid, better respected and the skills that are needed valued more, then there would be less need or drive to do something else, and as you say, people would be able to choose to do those jobs without being financially stretched, or judged negatively as unispired or not having aspirations. That's not to say that we shouldn't try and remove the barriers to people from poor backgrounds that hold them back, or change attitudes that you should know your place, or that university is only for a certain type of person, I strongly think we should. Everyone should have the opportunity and support to reach whatever level they want to, but if that level is one that doesn't require a degree, or doesn't attract a 6 figure salary, we also shouldn't be penalising them financially and in terms of judging them as lazy, especially when the workforce of just about any sector relies upon them. To me the ideal of that society would be supporting individuals to achieve what they want to achieve and removing the barriers to that that exist, but also recognising that we need the lower paid positions and respecting their status and contribution too, in financial and human terms.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/02/2022 12:49

Growing up in poverty is shit. I had years of depression which i believe is due to it. Shoes didn't fit properly, no opportunities to better yourself etc.

There are various studies that report that depression

Undercity · 21/02/2022 12:55

Working in a school within a subject which is often dismissed as "not needed" by those with low aspirations, I have picked up on a number of reasons why poverty and low aspirations often went hand in hand.

Some simply couldn't afford not to drop school after the age of 16. Benefits for children stop or are vastly reduced by that point, so they are needed to earn a wage immediately in order to keep going.

Some have seen many of their older relatives have a good life starting off in jobs that didn't use to require qualifications (childcare being a prime example) and just don't know how much rules and requirements have changed. Those are the ones that are often astonished when they first look at post-16 courses, by which time it is often too late.

Some are told their religious duties come before everything else (yes, this was very much a thing in one school I worked at) and they heavily rely on being able to work with relatives or family friends when they leave school.

Some have very high aspirations from the media they consume (pro footballer or singer come to mind) but don't understand that those require money to be able to take to pro levels. A former neighbour child was a karate progidy and his parents ended up travelling across the country almost every weekend for competitions and expert training. Many of our children don't understand the need for tenacity and money when looking at popular pro careers because so often a rise from poverty to fame is being portrayed as achievable in the media when the reality is very different.

Some just don't have a concept of money and what life costs because they never had pocket money, never saw their parents deal with money in person (card payments look and feel very different to cash transactions) or don't relise that their lifestyle incurs debt. I have had many conversations with students who did not have a clue that they needed to pay for e.g. council tax, water or even cleaning products.

Others had horrible parents and peers who would tell them where their place was and what the consequence of aspirations would be. I was repeatedly told I'd never make it in my chosen career by my family and my peers would bully me for trying to do well at school. It took an awful lot of grit to keep going and work alongside school because only my teachers would help me keep an eye on my goals while most of my environment just sneered.

And yes, some are just plain lazy. That can be a personality thing; one of my children is lazy by nature and needs a kick up the arse most days to get on with stuff while the other is a ball of energy. It can also be down to never having to work for anything until they are adults - so many of my students don't know how to cook basics, do laundry or even just ensure they have all their equipment because their parents do everything for them.

So there are many reasons why there is a divide and not all fit the common stereotype.

seekinglondonlife · 21/02/2022 12:59

@Shortbread49 the idea of a parent actively trying to sabotage a child's education would most likely not be believed on MN, but I have seen it myself with the families I support. I remember going into one household where the teenage daughter was bright and wanted to be a dental nurse (this was a family where being on the dole was the expected norm) and just as soon as she'd said it the dad piped up that he was praying she'd fail her GCSE's as "I don't want any snobs in this house" Sad In another household the father was furious that his son was reading books, as "he'd turn into nonce". It's not a case of blaming the poor, but changing attitudes that some people have.

Butteryflakycrust83 · 21/02/2022 12:59

Because we cant all have that lifestyle/those jobs?

I come from a working class family. I was the odd one out, the first one ever to go to uni, to work in the city, to work in a creative field.

And yet all my cousins, who married and had kids young, did not go to college, work blue collar jobs etc, all managed to get mortgages earlier on, are able to live close to each other and retain family support, maintain friendships from school etc. All happy with their lot.

Friendofdennis · 21/02/2022 13:00

I remember watching the documentary about Harrow school and realising that my own nephews were more intelligent and resourceful than many of those lucky boys who by their behaviour seemed to be pretty mediocre But of course they will have been imbued with self belief and given opportunities others will only dream of. My advice is to encourage your children to find out what their skills and interests are ( by reflecting on what they enjoy in school and maybe doing some career aptitude tests online ). Then go on to Prospects.ac which describes different careers and how to get there. Then look at university courses or high level apprenticeships. Think of uni debt as a graduate tax ( Martin Lewis of money saving expert talks about this ) so that psychologically it is not a burden which prevents poorer students going to university. There is also a website called Notgoingtouni. Which looks at ways to progress a good career in alternative ways. Good luck

YeahGo · 21/02/2022 13:01

truly low-skilled jobs would be outsourced to robots / AI

I disagree. You still need people to operate and maintain the machines. I'm pretty sure we'll still have janitors and cleaners in 1000 years. Income is always relative so someone's got to shovel the crap.

The white collar jobs these days are already becoming more blue collar by day. Think about all the unnecessary "skilled admin", policies and layers of new processes technology brings. Even in tech you outsource programming to low cost coders to do all the development work.

BlackeyedSusan · 21/02/2022 13:06

@SleepWhenAmDead

I think encouraging lots of interests is important and making their world bigger. E.g. I worked on a housing estate walking distance from the sea. Could literally walk there on my lunch break. Always surprised how many of the school kids have never been to the sea.

Take your kids out and about as much as possible. It’s good to tell them they can do any job but let them see the people doing these jobs and that they are just normal people. Take them to museums and any workshops and activities. Join the library and read to them and talk about the books.

Perhaps sign up for a course or look at a career improvement for yourself. If they see it is important to you, they will pay attention.

You clearly have no clue about the realities of just trying to survive and get by.
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