Why do people from poorer backgrounds have low aspirations

[suggestedlogin]

I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

To look at it from a MC perspective: I never doubted that I would go to university. My parents had been, the majority of my older relatives had been and my older cousins all went.

To me, it was GCSEs, a-levels and university. There was never any question of not going. I think all but one or two in my selective private school went.

It was back in the 90s just before tuition fees came in so granted, it was easier from a financial perspective.

Same goes for professional qualifications. I decided I wanted to be X and to follow that path I needed Y, so off I set to achieve it. Didn't enjoy it when I got there, but that's another story!!

Social mobility is at an all time low, increasingly the most neglected backgrounds are white working class boys.

According to a report in 2014 from Impetus, Digging Deeper, claims that “white working class boys have been left to underperform academically for decades” And yet, every metric in the pay gap shows white men performing better at every age and every career level, so it clearly isn’t something that is holding them back in the same way as it does every other group.

Just going to put this here again why everyone is busy assuming low aspiration is the issue

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while

To look at it from a MC perspective: I never doubted that I would go to university. My parents had been, the majority of my older relatives had been and my older cousins all went.

Looking at it from a WC perspective, I was the first in my family to go, there was never any question in my family that I would go either.

@TheBitchOfTheVicar

Look up the concept of cultural capital. See if anything resonates with you

Agree with this.

Years ago you didn’t need specific GCSEs to do jobs.

I took O levels in 1989, last year who did. I was told I needed a C grade in maths at O level to go to Uni even if I did a humanities degree. I was hopeless at maths, so I was fortunate my grandad paid for private lessons and I scraped a C. I also did maths CSE as unis then classed a grade one CSE equal to a C at O level. Was much easier to get a grade one CSE than a C at O level so was back up.

Where this is the case (as it's not always, as people have said), it's because people tend to stick to what they know - i remember watching a documentary about the lack of social mobility and there was a young girl from Sheffield interviewed who made a very good point - that she and he peers didn't really know what a solicitor does, for example. They don't know any, they don't know what there is to aim at, and she was aware there was a big gap in her knowledge as to what was out there beyond what they see their friends and family doing.

I've grown up surrounded by lawyers, journalists, doctors, business consultants, people running businesses etc - I knew what the options for better paying jobs were (not that I took one, I'm an editor!), so it makes a big difference to your horizons.

I completely agree with PPS who’ve talked about others having aspirations on your behalf. We weren’t hothoused (thank god) but it was expected that we Did Something with our lives. We also went to schools where those around us were the same, and teachers made it clear they had expectations of us too.

That said, the school was streamed and it was kind of like two separate worlds at times - those in the lower streams got taught and treated very differently. I remember hearing two teachers of the lower streams talking once and one said to the other “What’s the point of teaching them anyway, it’s not like they’ll turn up for the exam”. Teachers decided which papers you sat, which in turn drove what grades you could get, and what future options were available. Some of those kids were written off before they started.

I grew up in a very middle class bubble, we lived in a very expensive area, I was in the “good” stream so my friends were middle class, we did middle class hobbies and pursuits such as museums etc, and we travelled. It was normal for us. But forward 20-odd years and I was living in a less-nice bit of a city and which really opened my eyes that for a lot of people, my upbringing wasn’t ”normal” at all. That really WAS like two different worlds, and for a while I couldn’t understand why some people behaved as they did. Then I realised: they don’t know any differently. If I ran up a debt, I’d ring the company and ask for a payment plan. Someone I knew in this situation just didn’t pay his rent in order to pay off the debt, so he got kicked out. Another neighbour didn’t understand why he kept losing his job: because he didn’t turn up if he didn’t feel like it. If you don’t know how the game works, you can’t play it. If you can’t join in (I knew of someone who didn’t want a job where they’d have to go out for dinner because they didn’t know how to ‘do’ formal dining), you can’t participate. If you don’t know the rules because no one ever taught you, you can’t work within them even if you want to.

Cultural capital is such a huge factor, and I had no idea of my privilege in this regard or of the huge difference it makes.

@BoredZelda

Social mobility is at an all time low, increasingly the most neglected backgrounds are white working class boys.

According to a report in 2014 from Impetus, Digging Deeper, claims that “white working class boys have been left to underperform academically for decades” And yet, every metric in the pay gap shows white men performing better at every age and every career level, so it clearly isn’t something that is holding them back in the same way as it does every other group.

But it doesn’t say white working class boys but white men so that is taking into account white middle and upper class boys.

How many are actually from a poorer working class background.

I think there is a cultural issue in the UK of low expectations…..particularly for boys.
I think if you are surrounded by others with little to no aspiration then it is contagious as a mindset.
Low expectations when kids are small means they are virtually impossible to parent by the teenage years and then it is their peers who are most influential.

@suggestedlogin

I may not be explaining myself well here so please bear with me!

I've seen on here a few times where it's been mentioned that people from poorer backgrounds / deprived areas don't have higher aspirations. It seems they can do better but don't.

Just wondering why this is and what would help to change it.

Reason I'm asking is I'm from a por background and I still am. I don't want this for my kids but don't know how or what to do to change it.

Education and motivation, encourage those any way you can.

If I ran up a debt, I’d ring the company and ask for a payment plan. Someone I knew in this situation just didn’t pay his rent in order to pay off the debt, so he got kicked out. Another neighbour didn’t understand why he kept losing his job: because he didn’t turn up if he didn’t feel like it. If you don’t know how the game works, you can’t play it. If you can’t join in

That's the practical intelligence Gladwell talks about (PP).

Haven't RTFT, but even now I feel a wave of minor panic when I read the phrase "You can do anything you want".

A few confident teenagers will be encouraged by that.

Less confident teens will just think "....How?? Do what???". If you look around you, and everyone's parents and older siblings are doing bog standard jobs, and you live far from a thriving city so sectors like finance and tech are invisible to you, then how on earth are you supposed to believe that you are going to step onto some unspecified higher plane armed with only your good grades? And if it was that easy, why didn't your parents do it?

It's the environment - having people around you who will give you ideas, stretch you, but - crucially - provide role models of people like you doing well. It's easy to say in theory "you can do anything", but when that child comes into contact with confident private school kids for the first time at uni, say, they'll suddenly realise there's a whole other world of people not like them, and those are the ones off on internships, who "just know" and seem to have already done so much, whose parents live in a big London house and do jobs you've never heard of. It can bring a young person crashing down to earth. Obviously we can't necessarily provide all that for our kids, but make sure they are armed. Don't think good grades will do it. That was true forty years ago - it's not true now.

Because Im happy and wouldnt give piss to be part of the penny chasing wannabe middle class.

It's not a lack of ambision in life its about being happy in who I am and where I come from.

A lot of us simple working class country folk are perfectly happy not being lawyers and soliciters, not because we are too 'dumb' to know we could be (I have 2 degrees, 1 being medical but I don't work in either field I run my own small part-time business making under 12k per year, my friend has a law degree and chose to be a receptionist in a local clinic) but rather we made an active choice NOT to be because honestly its our idea of hell being rich slave to the grind city slickers.

it's because people tend to stick to what they know

I remember watching a C4 programme years ago about a black boy who was taken out of a sink school and sent to not only a private school, but to live with a black middle class family instead of his own who were clearly poor and struggling. Suddenly, he went from being in trouble to doing well academically. It was only supposed to be a short term thing for the filming but the private school were so impressed with him and his abilities/potential, they offered him a scholarship place.

His family withdrew him. They said he was a “coconut” (black on the outside and white on the inside, presumably an education being seen as a “white” value) and they clearly didn’t want him bettering himself or leaving them behind. I often think of that programme and hope to hell that kid managed to make a better life for himself in the end.

@TheFirstSpiderMan

To look at it from a MC perspective: I never doubted that I would go to university. My parents had been, the majority of my older relatives had been and my older cousins all went.

To me, it was GCSEs, a-levels and university. There was never any question of not going. I think all but one or two in my selective private school went.

It was back in the 90s just before tuition fees came in so granted, it was easier from a financial perspective.

Same goes for professional qualifications. I decided I wanted to be X and to follow that path I needed Y, so off I set to achieve it. Didn't enjoy it when I got there, but that's another story!!

You hit the nail on the head.

@Zotter

Years ago you didn’t need specific GCSEs to do jobs.

I took O levels in 1989, last year who did. I was told I needed a C grade in maths at O level to go to Uni even if I did a humanities degree. I was hopeless at maths, so I was fortunate my grandad paid for private lessons and I scraped a C. I also did maths CSE as unis then classed a grade one CSE equal to a C at O level. Was much easier to get a grade one CSE than a C at O level so was back up.

Sorry I used GCSEs as the equivalent to O levels and like you being asked for particulars qualifications to get into A levels/Uni/Jobs etc

1970s you could blag your way into many jobs. As I said Dh got a law degree without having an English O level.

Having said that Dd works as a manager in one of her roles. A role that says you need a degree to do.
She does other work that says you need a degree to do. To Dd it is common sense.

This is the reason I became a teacher.

None of family and friends are high achievers and actually look down on people who do well. Only some have GCSEs or equivalent but none have anything higher. They’re mostly all on NMW and no one owns their own homes.

I wanted to be a high achiever and go to university which I did but I had no support and some people actually stopped speaking to me over my decision to go to uni.

It absolutely starts with your parents.
You tend to follow in their footsteps. You find that many doctors, teachers, lawyers etc have family members that are the same.

You become who you surround yourself with.

I would just encourage them as much as you can. If they say they want to do something then find out some information on colleges or what qualifications they need, just to show how much you believe in them.

You are on MN asking how best to support your children - that already tells me that they will be high achievers and have a good life.

I justed wanted to say thank you for starting this thread.

It's reminded me why as a 30 year old i've gone to uni. I was finding it hard and a struggle and began questioning why i did it.
Then i remembered I wanted better for me and my DS. I'm the first ever person in my entire immediate and distant family that has gone to uni.

I want to show my DS that you can have aspirations and aim for higher jobs. I tell him he can do whatever he wants but I want him to also see that if you work hard you can aim for anything

@BrightYellowDaffodil do you know what that programme was called? It sounds really interesting (and sad).

I grew up on benefits very poor and a traumatic childhood. I am now successful. It was a mixture of engrained work ethic from my mum, teachers determined to get me to university (on a full grant) and me having an understanding that to get a job, you need a job (even if its lower paid than benefits in the first instance) This is easier to do when you are young with no kids, get working early to get out of the trap

[quote WonderfulYou]@BrightYellowDaffodil do you know what that programme was called? It sounds really interesting (and sad).[/quote]
No, I’ve been racking my brains and I cannot for the life of me remember what it was. It was probably 15-20 years ago.

It also massively matters what you consider low aspirations.

Wanting a stable ,steady job that you don't hate is a good aspiration to have even if it's not a 6 figure job.

Wanting to become a millionaire youtuber or footballer is childish and unrealistic for most.

Wanting to become PM or a banker or a media mogul is possible but unlikely and it needs as much luck and connections as hard work if not even more. However the stepping stones can offer a good career/job/life.

Some aspirations that you find low it's actually a lot more and a step up for plenty of kids compared to where they come from and they grew up with.

Not a lot to add to the numerous comments on here except to agree that it starts with you. Have bigger aspirations for yourself, study part time if you have to, be a good role model.
Take your DC to as many different places as you can. If you can move to an area with better schools (I'm totally aware this isn't always possible)
I taught in a large city and knew children who had never been to the city centre (let alone to the excellent, free museums, library, art gallery) which was a 20 minute bus ride away.
I'd also say be totally engaged with their school work, help them research and study.
Good luck @suggestedlogin, invest in yourself and your DC.