Page 7 | Asking to be made redundant instead of going down the maternity discrimination route? Advice needed!

GinUnicorn · 16/02/2022 08:05

I ended up with a settlement for sex discrimination and unfair dismissal. A few things I learnt - take as you will.

It’s really hard. I essentially got a years pay but I had been there 10 years and loved my job. I still feel sad about the way it played out. (Management changed after a takeover)
You need a lawyer. They aren’t cheap but if it goes your way the company will pay legal costs. It is a risk though so be sure you want to go down this route.
You need evidence. As much as possible.

In your case I would be concerned the company could quite truthfully claim that you are welcome to return to your job which would likely mean very little if any compensation.

It’s a stressful process be sure you are willing to go through the time, expense and hassle of it all as you might not be entitled to very much.

LadyCleathStuart · 16/02/2022 08:17

@Skynorth

You are entitled to your maternity leave. Any actions taken by your employer which make you feel like resigning (and you wouldn’t therefore get maternity pay) can be classed as “constructive dismissal”. (I have a background in HR and I also have a law degree with additional qualifications in employment law) It’s up to your employer to acknowledge that you want to take maternity leave and it shouldn’t be down to you to chase them up about it. I advise you to get in touch with ACAS, outline your situation to them, and in the meantime make sure all communication with your employer is via email so you have proof of what’s going on. Good luck x

you haven't actually read this have you? come on now, I also have a law degree and pretty much day one you are taught to not comment without establishing the facts.

OP has been on mat leave already. ffs

Teamill · 16/02/2022 08:29

Not a hope in hell that you are trained in HR. You can't just be made redundant because you don't fancy your job any more when the job still exists.

CailleachGranda · 16/02/2022 09:08

@Skynorth

You are entitled to your maternity leave. Any actions taken by your employer which make you feel like resigning (and you wouldn’t therefore get maternity pay) can be classed as “constructive dismissal”. (I have a background in HR and I also have a law degree with additional qualifications in employment law) It’s up to your employer to acknowledge that you want to take maternity leave and it shouldn’t be down to you to chase them up about it. I advise you to get in touch with ACAS, outline your situation to them, and in the meantime make sure all communication with your employer is via email so you have proof of what’s going on. Good luck x

Un, what?

Are you in the right thread?
x

AppleTangerine · 16/02/2022 09:10

Some of the replies here are shocking. Why shouldn't women start maternity leave when pregnant?
It sounds like the op wanted to go back to her job in January but was unable to contact anyone to arrange it - and even after raising a grievance in December wasn't contacted until February. That doesn't sound like her job is available for her to me?

Chestofdraws · 16/02/2022 09:12

@AppleTangerine

Some of the replies here are shocking. Why shouldn't women start maternity leave when pregnant? It sounds like the op wanted to go back to her job in January but was unable to contact anyone to arrange it - and even after raising a grievance in December wasn't contacted until February. That doesn't sound like her job is available for her to me?

I’m fairly sure there were multiple people she could contact, including hr.

I think you’ve missed the point. The role is available. She doesn’t want it.

What she wants is to leave but for them to give her some money.

RedHelenB · 16/02/2022 09:21

@Poppysmummy92

Hello!

Some back story -

I joined my employer in December 2020. In January 2021 I told my manager I was 20 weeks pregnant and after that it went VERY downhill. My manager left unexpectedly and didn’t tell anyone, so for weeks I was trying to find out what I was meant to be doing and who I was reporting to as at the time it was a 100% WFH environment so I was completely on my own. I didn’t really get any contact from anyone until March 2021 when I finally was given a stand in manager who swiftly hired my maternity cover and I went on maternity leave in April 2021. In October 2021 I had an email saying they had appointed a new manager and he would be in touch but I didn’t hear anything. In November 2021 I emailed my contact and said could someone please contact me as I was due back in January 2022 and I had no idea who my manager was and what I was coming back too but nobody replied. In December 2021 I raised a formal complaint with HR as I genuinely believe as soon as I told my employer I was pregnant they wrote me off, and the communication since I’ve been off has been shocking.

So anyway, fast forward to today and the new manager has finally been in touch. He was prompted off the back of my grievance! He called and said he was sorry and he would look at options for my return and look into the grievance. I didn’t have any review meetings during my time at the company so I’ve never been given the opportunity to tell anyone that the job is not for me and it’s not something I want to return to and I told the new manager I wasn’t keen to return. Again, he has vanished and isn’t replying to my emails!

I get the feeling he is waiting for me to get fed up and resign. But I want some sort of compensation for the stress they put me under and their incredibly poor practice. I really want to ask them to make me redundant, but is that even possible?!

I’m just wondering if anyone had any advice on what I can do. The grievance route will be very very long winded, I work in employee relations I know the process to an extent. I just want to make it easier for everyone and leave, but not empty handed!

Any advice I’d be forever grateful this is causing me daily stress!!

Have you actually done any work for them?

IntermittentParps · 16/02/2022 09:22

Your role still exists, right? That being the case, they can’t make you redundant.
I can't believe you're an HR professional and not know that, TBH.
Best you could do IMO would be to get together all the evidence you have along the lines of the “it’s all I need, she’s going to do fuck all now she’s pregnant” message and talk to an employment solicitor about a settlement agreement.

Blossomtoes · 16/02/2022 09:23

@AppleTangerine

Some of the replies here are shocking. Why shouldn't women start maternity leave when pregnant? It sounds like the op wanted to go back to her job in January but was unable to contact anyone to arrange it - and even after raising a grievance in December wasn't contacted until February. That doesn't sound like her job is available for her to me?

Whether her job is available surely depends on whether she’s being paid. I’m assuming she is or she’d have made sure she told us.

Aprilx · 16/02/2022 09:25

@Poppysmummy92

I’m not asking for legal advice, I know the legal side I am trained in HR and work on grievances for a living! I’m just asking if anyone has ever suggested redundancy without redundancies happening in the business or if anyone has any advice on maternity discrimination as it’s not an area I’m that clued up with. All of my knowledge is on bullying type cases. I am not a money grabber I just know employee rights and from my experience in the company there has been multiple occasions where they’ve preached contact.

Please save your anger my post is not worth the energy!

Well you don’t know the law very well then do you! People are not made redundant, roles are and yours isn’t.

I think what you are trying to ask about is a severance package, which is quite different to a redundancy.

But yes you are a CF and it is people like you that make it just a little bit harder for every woman of child bearing age in the workplace. You didn’t do any work there and don’t want to go back, you have gas maternity pay! Why the hell do you think you shouldn’t leave “empty handed”.

ShippingNews · 16/02/2022 09:33

I don't work in HR, but I know that you can't "ask to be made redundant". A job can become redundant if it is no longer needed in the company, and the person doing that job then becomes redundant. Nobody gets to ask to be made redundant if their job still exists.

anon12345678901 · 16/02/2022 09:37

Well I'm guessing they'll be happy you've gone tbh. You also have no clue about HR if you don't realise a role is made redundant not a person. If they made you redundant and rehired for your role immediately, the company could get into trouble. You sound grabby.

PeeAche · 16/02/2022 09:52

Hey OP, I'm sorry you've been through this crap. It sounds to me as though you didn't really like the job at all and didn't feel connected to it.

I've been in my job for several years and about to go on mat leave. While I'm gone, I'll be changing managers too and the thought is a scary one. But if they weren't keeping in comms, I'd bloody march down there and kick up stinks.

They didn't want you back and you didn't want to go back so nobody has really tried particularly hard.

I don't know if you're eligible for much, but it certainly sounds like constructive dismissal.
In my twenties, a manager I worked for sexually assaulted me and then made my life a living hell until I quit. The HR department were "in" on it. I tried to have them done for CD but it was awful. It was tiring and stressful. They posted me reams and reams of stuff about my time keeping and picked out every tiny example of me being late back from lunch by a few minutes (over years and years). They went through my emails with a fine tooth comb and put together a case for me taking too many coffee breaks. They demanded evidence of dental appointments that I'd been to 6 years before. Basically, they used everything at their disposal to make me seem lazy, disloyal and a liar. I'd always considered myself a good employee. It was horrible to see myself through that lens. I cracked and dropped the case. My solicitor said they likely would have settled in the last few moments before the session went in but I couldn't take anymore. I was getting divorced at the time too.

So, a man I worked with tried to force his bare penis into my mouth in a meeting room. I was left unemployed, broken, scarred, humiliated and skint. He's been promoted.

I just don't think it's worth pursuing anything through an employment tribunal. The system is set up to protect businesses. Find a new job and forget these losers, that's my advice.

LadyCleathStuart · 16/02/2022 10:04

@PeeAche

Hey OP, I'm sorry you've been through this crap. It sounds to me as though you didn't really like the job at all and didn't feel connected to it.

I've been in my job for several years and about to go on mat leave. While I'm gone, I'll be changing managers too and the thought is a scary one. But if they weren't keeping in comms, I'd bloody march down there and kick up stinks.

They didn't want you back and you didn't want to go back so nobody has really tried particularly hard.

I don't know if you're eligible for much, but it certainly sounds like constructive dismissal.
In my twenties, a manager I worked for sexually assaulted me and then made my life a living hell until I quit. The HR department were "in" on it. I tried to have them done for CD but it was awful. It was tiring and stressful. They posted me reams and reams of stuff about my time keeping and picked out every tiny example of me being late back from lunch by a few minutes (over years and years). They went through my emails with a fine tooth comb and put together a case for me taking too many coffee breaks. They demanded evidence of dental appointments that I'd been to 6 years before. Basically, they used everything at their disposal to make me seem lazy, disloyal and a liar. I'd always considered myself a good employee. It was horrible to see myself through that lens. I cracked and dropped the case. My solicitor said they likely would have settled in the last few moments before the session went in but I couldn't take anymore. I was getting divorced at the time too.

So, a man I worked with tried to force his bare penis into my mouth in a meeting room. I was left unemployed, broken, scarred, humiliated and skint. He's been promoted.

I just don't think it's worth pursuing anything through an employment tribunal. The system is set up to protect businesses. Find a new job and forget these losers, that's my advice.

I am so sorry this happened to you but you are distorting things here. What has happened to the OP is nowhere near being anything like this.

Chestofdraws · 16/02/2022 10:28

@PeeAche

Hey OP, I'm sorry you've been through this crap. It sounds to me as though you didn't really like the job at all and didn't feel connected to it.

I've been in my job for several years and about to go on mat leave. While I'm gone, I'll be changing managers too and the thought is a scary one. But if they weren't keeping in comms, I'd bloody march down there and kick up stinks.

They didn't want you back and you didn't want to go back so nobody has really tried particularly hard.

I don't know if you're eligible for much, but it certainly sounds like constructive dismissal.
In my twenties, a manager I worked for sexually assaulted me and then made my life a living hell until I quit. The HR department were "in" on it. I tried to have them done for CD but it was awful. It was tiring and stressful. They posted me reams and reams of stuff about my time keeping and picked out every tiny example of me being late back from lunch by a few minutes (over years and years). They went through my emails with a fine tooth comb and put together a case for me taking too many coffee breaks. They demanded evidence of dental appointments that I'd been to 6 years before. Basically, they used everything at their disposal to make me seem lazy, disloyal and a liar. I'd always considered myself a good employee. It was horrible to see myself through that lens. I cracked and dropped the case. My solicitor said they likely would have settled in the last few moments before the session went in but I couldn't take anymore. I was getting divorced at the time too.

So, a man I worked with tried to force his bare penis into my mouth in a meeting room. I was left unemployed, broken, scarred, humiliated and skint. He's been promoted.

I just don't think it's worth pursuing anything through an employment tribunal. The system is set up to protect businesses. Find a new job and forget these losers, that's my advice.

I’m so sorry this happened to you, whay happened with the police investigation? Was that also a nightmare?

I think though the ops situation is very different and less high stakes, she was there a month when she told them when she was five months pregnant, left four months later, in the meantime they’ve had a huge turnover in managers, and she doesn’t wish to go back, but would like them to give her some money.

I think it would be nigh on impossible for her to prove discrimination to gain a settlement, sure their communication is shit, but poor communication due to high manager turn over is not discrimination. It’s just poor communication. Proving it was because she was on maternity would be very difficult indeed.

She’s also already told them she doesn’t want to come back. She can try for some money, but this is an employee none of them barely know and who in reality only worked there a tiny amount of time. They need to manage it correctly, but that’s about all. They will likely pull a trump card and say come on back, and defend the poor communication as due to staff turnover, which is to be fair, likely true.

jacks11 · 16/02/2022 10:30

Like others have said, redundancy is not an option for you. I’m surprised you are “fully trained in HR legislation” if you weren’t aware of this, though.

Did you expect a formal performance meeting somewhere in the 5 months you worked for them? Did they tell you would have one and not bother, or did you just expect one? If the former, we’re other employees getting those meetings? Also- we’re you really going to say in that meeting “this job is not for me?”- surely you’d just look for a new job? I’m not sure what good would have come of telling them you hated the job but weren’t leaving, nor what you would have expected them to do about it? It’s all a bit odd.

I think what you’d original manager said in the chat message was wrong, and you had a right to complain about it at the time- which you did. However, as the employee who the complaint was against (your manager) had left there was no formal action your employer could take against them (this stands whether you think they had any intention to or not). I’m not sure whether you’d have a discrimination case against them based on this- I would think you’d need a lot more evidence than this one incident.

I also agree that their communication with you has been very poor. However, I’m confused as to whether you didn’t start back in January because no-one contacted you or whether you did go back but had no meeting/contact from manager? Either way, surely there was someone in your HR department, or even your own, other than your “contact” you could have contacted to highlight the problem? You shouldn’t have to, of course, and it shows very poor organisation within your department (if not the whole organisation itself) but I’m not sure you could say this was solely due to your maternity leave- it sounds like wfh/staff turnover etc has created chaos. Which is never a good indicator, but not sure it is discrimination so much as poor practice.

In any case, I think you either need to continue with the grievance case and await the outcome or quit and draw a line under it. You could ask for a settlement, and they might give you one (e.g. no repayment of enhanced mat pay) or a small “no fault” settlement, to wrap it up and move on. Or, they might decide that as you have already told them the job isn’t for you that they will ride it out in the hope that you’ll get fed up and move on. Could you speak to ACAS?

I have to say, I am on the fence- I think you have been subject to poor management, but I am not sure whether it qualifies for “compensation”.

EmbarrassedAllOver · 16/02/2022 10:32

This happened to me almost identically.

My advice is fight it.

I took redundancy and regretted it deeply when I found it hard to get a similar paid job after. I'm now having to start again in a slightly different field.

Don't give up on your job, fight for it.

WhatATimeToBeAlive · 16/02/2022 10:34

God, you sound awful and grabby. They will be well shot of you.

SD1978 · 16/02/2022 10:36

@EmbarrassedAllOver - she doesn't want the job, didn't want it before maternity leave, and has told them still doesn't......

Cognoscenti · 16/02/2022 10:43

You'll get stick for daring to start a job pregnant and how it makes all women look bad, yadda yadda yadda... As if there's ever the perfect time.

I think you've been treated badly, even taking pregnancy out of the picture, you're an employee who's been off work for a long time, and they didn't even contact you to arrange your return? From your OP, it sounds like you were due back in January and have only this month had contact from your manager?

I will soon be returning from maternity leave, my second one almost back to back after also starting my job pregnant. A manager has been in touch to confirm return date, ask if I have any questions, need to discuss flexible working, etc.
If I were you, I'd stay in your post, and start looking for something else now. Best to leave only when you have a new job confirmed.

JeffThePilot · 16/02/2022 10:45

@EmbarrassedAllOver

This happened to me almost identically.

My advice is fight it.

I took redundancy and regretted it deeply when I found it hard to get a similar paid job after. I'm now having to start again in a slightly different field.

Don't give up on your job, fight for it.

Fight what?

Cuck00soup · 16/02/2022 10:47

Most jobs have a probation period. As the OP was pregnant, her employer couldn't tell her it wasn't working out. What with her being an employment specialist who knew nothing about employment practice and all.

Her former manager really shouldn't have put her thoughts on WhatsApp though.

Blossomtoes · 16/02/2022 10:49

You'll get stick for daring to start a job pregnant and how it makes all women look bad, yadda yadda yadda... As if there's ever the perfect time.

No, not at all. She’s quite rightly getting stick for not being open, honest and transparent about her pregnancy during the recruitment process. That’s always going to piss an employer off and means they’ll never trust you.

I’ll bet your employer loves you @Cognoscenti. Talk about a piss take.

Chestofdraws · 16/02/2022 10:52

@Cognoscenti

You'll get stick for daring to start a job pregnant and how it makes all women look bad, yadda yadda yadda... As if there's ever the perfect time.

I think you've been treated badly, even taking pregnancy out of the picture, you're an employee who's been off work for a long time, and they didn't even contact you to arrange your return? From your OP, it sounds like you were due back in January and have only this month had contact from your manager?

I will soon be returning from maternity leave, my second one almost back to back after also starting my job pregnant. A manager has been in touch to confirm return date, ask if I have any questions, need to discuss flexible working, etc.
If I were you, I'd stay in your post, and start looking for something else now. Best to leave only when you have a new job confirmed.

There’s nearly two hundred responses and no one has done this.

AdmiralCain · 16/02/2022 10:56

You lost me at in January you told your employer you were 20 weeks pregnant, very underhand, I see this all the time.

I remember years ago a girl was supposed to start on a Monday, called in sick and came in on Tuesday and apologised - she came in and I let her go there and then as she hadn't signed a contract and it spoke volumes about her if she couldn't make the first day. She then mentioned she was pregnant, I didn't know but guaranteed she would have gone on maternity leave and we'd never see her again.