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AIBU?

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Original poster

Lawyers - thoughts please

92 replies

HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 19:53

I am a solicitor, I qualified late 2020. There have obviously been massive pay increases of recent and pay wars between firms. I am at a large regional firm and on £47k currently.
Firms such as Eversheds and DLA have just announced regional NQ salary will be going up to £62k and £65k respectively.

AIBU to have a discussion with my partner soon(ish) to say that when salaries increase in September, as a 2 year PQE by then I will expect c. £65k? That's taking into consideration that Eversheds and DLA are obviously international and have a higher turnover.

The current NQ salary at my firm is £46k. Please can I have some advice around how to broach this with my partner and what my salary expectations realistically should be. (I am regionally based so not taking the crazy London salaries into consideration!)

Thanks in advance

OP posts:
Shamoo · 14/02/2022 19:56

When I was in private practice (a few years ago now) the salaries of the more junior lawyers were set in stone - until senior associate level, they increased every 6 months on a set scale and there was no individual negotiation to be had at all. The new numbers were announced annually for the whole intake at that level. That was at two magic circle law firms.

Is your firm different to this?

Shamoo · 14/02/2022 19:57

(It may well have changed since I left though)

Eileen101 · 14/02/2022 20:01

You could try and say that! Do you have any justification to back it up? Billing and utilisation targets? Any significant settlements or complicated litigation that you have won recently?
Do you have an option if they say "no chance"? Cam you move on? Would you move on?

If I said that at my firm, there'd be no chance Grin

Goinglive · 14/02/2022 20:03

Yeah but you’d have to work for shitty Eversheds….

DragonMamma · 14/02/2022 20:03

Also in a regional firm (HR not a lawyer!) and I would say you need to weigh up the benefits of being in a regional (possibly smaller teams, less hierarchical and better exposure to work) versus being in the likes of the Sheds or DLA where you may be one of many and you exposure could be more limited.

I think at 2yrs PQE you can afford to play the long game and think about career prospects in the medium term rather than just chasing the money.

Ultimately, it’s about what you value at this stage of your career.

DragonMamma · 14/02/2022 20:04

@Goinglive

Yeah but you’d have to work for shitty Eversheds….
Grin

It’s one firm I’ve never even considered working for - all I’ve ever heard is how small people feel in comparison to the juggernaut it is - fine for some but most people I know haven’t stayed for a significant length of time

BrickChimney · 14/02/2022 20:09

I work for a global firm, 4 years PQE and we’ve just had a whopping pay increase. I suspect it’s because the NQ rate has gone up from £48k to somewhere in the £60k mark, so they’ve had to increase the salary at all the other levels too. That and the market is insane at the moment (or is in my specialism).

BrickChimney · 14/02/2022 20:10

I work in the regions by the way, not London.

Fusillage · 14/02/2022 20:12

I can’t tell you what the right expectations are for your type of firm but tbh the only way you will usually make it out of the usual salary banding (set in stone as a pp commented) is to get another job offer with your ideal salary and then persuade them they want to keep you and raise your salary. Tbh at sub 2 years qualified you’d be laughed out of our shop but I applaud the chutzpah!

FluffyMcFluffFace · 14/02/2022 20:14

I think it very much depends on what sort of work you do, and what the firm is like. I can say that in private (as opposed to commercial) litigation like I am, you wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of getting that at 2yrs PQE! A £20k pay rise is unrealistic in my view. £2 would be more like it...

ForeverSingle881 · 14/02/2022 20:18

Well they're likely working longer hours than you at Eversheds and DLA so you need to go there instead if that's what you want. Junior associate salaries tend to be set in stone but you can ask

Chessie678 · 14/02/2022 20:25

I think there is a lot of upwards pressure on salaries in law at the moment but I doubt you will be able to negotiate at 2 years pqe on an individual basis. I’m at a regional firm though one of the better paying ones and salaries are essentially non negotiable until later. They don’t want a situation where a 2 yr pqe is paid more than a 4 yr etc. Not to say that they wouldn’t flex that for someone exceptional though I’m not aware of it ever having happened where I am. I was offered a raise to stay at my last firm at 1 yr pqe when I had an alternative offer on the table but it was a smaller firm and didn’t have such strict policies on compensation.

If enough juniors ask for pay rises they might increase across the board though. My firm did 10% increases in each band last year and are still losing people to London all the time so suspect we will see another year of significant raises. Or if you can manage a London commute 2 days per week you probably have access to some of those firms now as many are sticking with hybrid working.

Zuma76 · 14/02/2022 20:49

I work for a small London firm and the salary bandings are applied consistently. The salaries are a fraction of large London firms. If you want a wage similar to sheds and DLA etc you need to go and work for them. You cannot compare your salary to theirs. Different firms/ different expectation/ different salaries. If the 1 year PQE in my team tried this tactic I’d tell them to move on.

Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:50

@Shamoo

When I was in private practice (a few years ago now) the salaries of the more junior lawyers were set in stone - until senior associate level, they increased every 6 months on a set scale and there was no individual negotiation to be had at all. The new numbers were announced annually for the whole intake at that level. That was at two magic circle law firms.

Is your firm different to this?

It increases annually in September and there is usually a bracket of what each PQE will go up to but there is movement for different things. E.g. hitting/exceeding target, BD, client care etc
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:52

@Eileen101

You could try and say that! Do you have any justification to back it up? Billing and utilisation targets? Any significant settlements or complicated litigation that you have won recently? Do you have an option if they say "no chance"? Cam you move on? Would you move on?

If I said that at my firm, there'd be no chance Grin

I am currently on track to exceed my target when financial year end comes. I would move if I was going to get £20k more! The difficulty for me is that I want to start TTC next year and if I move I will obviously have to push that back as will need to be at the new firm for 2 years in order to get enhanced maternity pay. This is the issue and something that is stressing me out a bit!
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:53

@DragonMamma

Also in a regional firm (HR not a lawyer!) and I would say you need to weigh up the benefits of being in a regional (possibly smaller teams, less hierarchical and better exposure to work) versus being in the likes of the Sheds or DLA where you may be one of many and you exposure could be more limited.

I think at 2yrs PQE you can afford to play the long game and think about career prospects in the medium term rather than just chasing the money.

Ultimately, it’s about what you value at this stage of your career.

This is a really helpful comment, thank you. This is also true as I have a lot of exposure! Also amazing supervision of the work that I do myself and great training. Lots of opportunities to interact with clients myself etc. I love my job and I know I'm good at it so I get lots of job satisfaction and I'm genuinely very happy
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:56

@BrickChimney

I work for a global firm, 4 years PQE and we’ve just had a whopping pay increase. I suspect it’s because the NQ rate has gone up from £48k to somewhere in the £60k mark, so they’ve had to increase the salary at all the other levels too. That and the market is insane at the moment (or is in my specialism).
This is what frustrated me last pay increase, they increased NQ salary by £3k and mine by £3.5k! I had a chat with my partner and managed to get £4K instead but he said 'we've increased the NQ salary so we can't increase all the levels'. That doesn't even make sense! That's exactly what you have to do. So very frustrating
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:57

@Fusillage

I can’t tell you what the right expectations are for your type of firm but tbh the only way you will usually make it out of the usual salary banding (set in stone as a pp commented) is to get another job offer with your ideal salary and then persuade them they want to keep you and raise your salary. Tbh at sub 2 years qualified you’d be laughed out of our shop but I applaud the chutzpah!
This is what I was considering doing. I have a coach (ex-lawyer) and she cautioned me to only do this if I was definitely happy to leave. So I'll make sure it's a firm I'd be happy to go to!
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 20:58

@FluffyMcFluffFace

I think it very much depends on what sort of work you do, and what the firm is like. I can say that in private (as opposed to commercial) litigation like I am, you wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of getting that at 2yrs PQE! A £20k pay rise is unrealistic in my view. £2 would be more like it...
Eversheds NQ salary in September 2020 was £45k. This September its going up to £62k. It's the market that's dictating my expectations!
OP posts:
Dreamtheimpossibledream · 14/02/2022 20:58

As others have said, I would say there is next to no prospect of achieving this at a regional firm. The only way (in my experience) of getting a very significant hike would be to go to London and then return, using your London salary to leverage.

Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 21:00

@Chessie678

I think there is a lot of upwards pressure on salaries in law at the moment but I doubt you will be able to negotiate at 2 years pqe on an individual basis. I’m at a regional firm though one of the better paying ones and salaries are essentially non negotiable until later. They don’t want a situation where a 2 yr pqe is paid more than a 4 yr etc. Not to say that they wouldn’t flex that for someone exceptional though I’m not aware of it ever having happened where I am. I was offered a raise to stay at my last firm at 1 yr pqe when I had an alternative offer on the table but it was a smaller firm and didn’t have such strict policies on compensation.

If enough juniors ask for pay rises they might increase across the board though. My firm did 10% increases in each band last year and are still losing people to London all the time so suspect we will see another year of significant raises. Or if you can manage a London commute 2 days per week you probably have access to some of those firms now as many are sticking with hybrid working.

Considered returning to London (I trained in London) but the stress of the work gave me panic attacks and anxiety. I couldn't do that again!
OP posts:
Original poster
HuntyGirl · 14/02/2022 21:01

@Dreamtheimpossibledream

As others have said, I would say there is next to no prospect of achieving this at a regional firm. The only way (in my experience) of getting a very significant hike would be to go to London and then return, using your London salary to leverage.
The problem is that the difference is so large regionally now. There's a £20k difference between Eversheds, DLA etc and regional firms!
OP posts:
PrescriptionWine · 14/02/2022 21:03

@Goinglive

Yeah but you’d have to work for shitty Eversheds….
Ha! I worked here too, 12 years ago. Not a lawyer but a professional (think compliance / project management) bastards tried to rob me of my bonus because I dared take 6 month maternity...

Oh and international woman’s day, we always had a lovely email from the office partner in pink font Envy not envy

DreamingofTimbuktu · 14/02/2022 21:21

There’s just no way your partner is going to have the autonomy for that kind of rise, there’s going to be bands to work within. Depending on your relationship it’s worth pointing out the huge discrepancy with competitor firms. However unless you are being charged out at similar rates and charging a similar number of hours per year as your equivalent at Eversheds, geographical
proximity alone won’t wash.

VelvetSpoon · 14/02/2022 21:28

This is an eye opener...I'm a 25 year pqe solicitor earning under £60k.

There's been no payrises in my (medium sized national) firm since pre Covid, and even before that we got 2% at best. I asked for 5% one year (the year I got promoted to associate partner) and was flatly refused.

I'd love to get a pay rise of any kind this year but I'm not holding my breath!

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