Lawyers - thoughts please

[HuntyGirl]

I am a solicitor, I qualified late 2020. There have obviously been massive pay increases of recent and pay wars between firms. I am at a large regional firm and on £47k currently.
Firms such as Eversheds and DLA have just announced regional NQ salary will be going up to £62k and £65k respectively.

AIBU to have a discussion with my partner soon(ish) to say that when salaries increase in September, as a 2 year PQE by then I will expect c. £65k? That's taking into consideration that Eversheds and DLA are obviously international and have a higher turnover.

The current NQ salary at my firm is £46k. Please can I have some advice around how to broach this with my partner and what my salary expectations realistically should be. (I am regionally based so not taking the crazy London salaries into consideration!)

Thanks in advance

@DreamingofTimbuktu

There’s just no way your partner is going to have the autonomy for that kind of rise, there’s going to be bands to work within. Depending on your relationship it’s worth pointing out the huge discrepancy with competitor firms. However unless you are being charged out at similar rates and charging a similar number of hours per year as your equivalent at Eversheds, geographical proximity alone won’t wash.

I agree there will definitely be bands. I think all associates at my level should be raised to a level that is comparable with what others at our level are getting paid. It just seems crazy to me!

I hear such mixed things about Eversheds! Some people love it (my friends sister works there and loves it) and others seem to loathe it. For those of you that worked there, what did you dislike? Also, those of you who know people who work there, how do they find it?

@HuntyGirl

I hear such mixed things about Eversheds! Some people love it (my friends sister works there and loves it) and others seem to loathe it. For those of you that worked there, what did you dislike? Also, those of you who know people who work there, how do they find it?

I’ve worked in law for the best part of 10 years and my summary of Eversheds is that people go there because they historically paid more than others in our region. But! You’d never really hear of them again - they were always working on the crap that the London office didn’t want to work on (the lower value volume stuff usually - the dreaded Financial Services Disputes Resolution aka mortgage repo!) but they couldn’t leave because they’d become used to the salary. Oh and our local office was incredibly cliquey by all accounts.

I always found it very telling that their website was incredibly impersonal and neigh on impossible to find out who was who, beyond Partners.

@DragonMamma I was thinking of applying for that Lit role! When I qualified they contacted me for interview for a job in the team but I had just gotten my NQ job so turned the interview down. They always have vacancies in that department! I didn't realise it was essentially mortgage repo, no thanks. Yeah the salary is so good. I'm also thinking from the perspective of getting my salary as high as possible as after mat leave I will want to go down to 4 days so want it to still be a good take home pay. I know I definitely don't want to go to DLA as I'd be too stressed so not sure what to do now. A bit annoyed as I feel my firm is now going to start falling behind the competitive salaries

You may also want to give serious consideration to work life balance post mat leave.
I'm have a few more PQE for less money. I do however work 4 days, finish at 4pm and enjoy my evenings with my pre schoolers, doing tea-bath-stories-bed with them. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I think it partly depends on whether your firm wants to compete with Eversheds/DLA for talent or not. You don’t say if you do similar work to Eversheds/DLA so the partners may not think it’s an issue. Another key factor is how many people have been moving in your firm recently, the jobs market is very hot in a lot of legal sectors so I’d expect if you were competing with the larger firms you’ll have seen that internally. Your partner won’t have the authority to give you that much of a rise but if enough of you ask they might change the salary bands for everyone. Are you close enough to your colleagues to discuss salary to see if they’re willing to ask for the same?

Depending on how attractive you and colleagues are to the likes of Eversheds etc it might well be your current firm is seriously considering pay increases anyway - I'm a partner (not any of the firms named but we do compete with them) and we are v conscious that associates are getting called by agents all the time.

Totally agree with PP though that at 2PQE you will not get more than top of band - no-one is valuable enough when that junior to risk word getting out amongst your peers, pissing them off and creating mayhem in the 2-5PQE cohort.

@HuntyGirl the thing is, if smaller, regional firms paid multinational firm salaries, then they wouldn’t last for very long unless they hiked up their hourly rates and started going for the huge deals.

Nicely, I think you’re being naive if you think your salary has to match Eversheds or DLA, just because they pay more. The extra salary comes at a cost (usually work life/balance).

You’ve said yourself, you like your job a lot? Why are you looking at what everybody else is getting paid? We can always find somebody who’s getting paid more…

Hmm, there’s quite a lot going on here. I don’t want to unfairly pick because this is an open (and anonymous!) forum but TTC doesn’t always follow your schedule so be wary of planning career progression around it. A good firm is also worth its weight in gold and while I appreciate a 20k pay rise would mean a lot, its shininess will be severely diminished if you are unhappy. Is money or satisfaction more important to you? Is 20k remotely realistic? Have your firm’s profits gone up a lot (those in London have which explains some of the craziness) - matching peers is important but only if it doesn’t mean a dent elsewhere (read partner pockets). This might sound a bit harsh but your posts read a little as if you care about the cash but not the extra effort management might expect to justify it. And as someone said, class bargaining power - nobody will up salaries if associates are largely staying put at current rates.

Are DLA and Eversheds Associates really getting paid that in the “regions”? Rollonfriday doesn’t think so.

You are really junior to be taking time off for kids. Perhaps it’s not as bad in your area but in mine, 4 days a week is a career killer. Also no firm is going to want to give a 2 year pqe such a huge rise unless they are giving it to everyone. At that level you still need a lot of supervision and it’s hard to tell who will be the really valuable lawyers.

Ever sheds and DLA tend to do a lot of volume stuff especially in debt collection. I don’t know if it’s the best for career development- heard bad things about both. Both also had very many rounds of redundancies in the last recession and reportedly paid not more than statutory redundancy pay so that’s something to consider too.

The above seems a bit over negative but I would consider that it’s probably not the best idea to ask your partner for a 20k pay rise! Why not see what they propose to offer across the board then try to push it up a bit.

Also unfortunately in the last recession, women working part time or fixed hours were often first out the door. Law remains a difficult profession for women.

I'd echo thinking about flexibility and work-life balance as well as salary if you're considering TTC soon.

I have a nearly 2 year old and am pregnant again. My firm is very family friendly compared to many but it has still been really difficult at times. There are days when I get up with my DS at 5.30, do a full day, pick him up from nursery and put him to bed and work through until 12, sometimes getting up again in the night with him if he's ill etc. If I was at a city firm I suspect every day would be like that, though a nanny might be more affordable. However, I work part time and mostly from home, I get most mornings and evenings with DS, my boss is relaxed about me taking time off if he's ill and generally very supportive and I still get decent quality work and have good promotion and possibly partnership prospects. These things matter much more to me than salary right now.

Clearly many women make it work even at the most demanding firms but unless you have an extremely supportive partner who can take on a lot of childcare or other family help or can afford paid help it's really difficult to keep a law career going alongside young kids. Whether or not your firm and your specific team and supervisor is supportive through maternity leave and having young children can and often is the difference between continuing your career and taking several years out or leaving it altogether.

I think doing something you mostly enjoy is also really important. When you're leaving your baby for the first time to go back to work, it's much easier to do it for something you find engaging than something your find tedious / stressful etc.

I am currently on track to exceed my target when financial year end comes. I would move if I was going to get £20k more! The difficulty for me is that I want to start TTC next year and if I move I will obviously have to push that back as will need to be at the new firm for 2 years in order to get enhanced maternity pay. This is the issue and something that is stressing me out a bit!

Timing kids is really tricky with career moves. Honestly I wouldn't stay somewhere just because you want to start TTC next year. Think about your times lines:

Jan 2023 - start trying for a baby.

June 2023 - conceive

March 2024 - have baby

March 2025 - come back off mat leave. You aren't going to want to move straight away.

And that's IF you conceive after 6 months. It could take much much longer!

Then think about the next kid- you'll be in the same bloody position!

When you take into account stagnation in your career of the above timeline, you're better off moving when you want based on what's best for your career at the time and having kids as and when they come along.

This is how women get fucked in their career. Getting stuck because they think they can't move jobs because of a few grand of enhanced mat leave.

Also Make your damn husband take 6 months shared parental leave, share the burden and develop your career!

The difficulty for me is that I want to start TTC next year and if I move I will obviously have to push that back as will need to be at the new firm for 2 years in order to get enhanced maternity pay. This is the issue and something that is stressing me out a bit!

How old are you, OP?

I know people who have stayed at a firm for the maternity pay and then not been able to conceive.

If you're not happy at your current firm or believe you are being paid below market rate then I'd look at moving on sooner rather than later. Get a job with a firm that will pay you more, and then think about your timescale for TTC.

I wouldn't TTC within 6 months of starting a new job. But I wouldn't wait 2 years for enhanced maternity pay either if the salary was that much better than in my old job.

If you have a job offer in hand and you know what the difference in salary is, you can probably work out what the lost maternity pay would cost you in salary and how many months of the difference in pay between your old firm and your new firm it is. Then you'll be able to contextualise it by saying, if it takes me more than X months to get and stay pregnant, I'm better off moving to a better paid job even if I don't get the maternity pay.

@Eileen101

You may also want to give serious consideration to work life balance post mat leave. I'm have a few more PQE for less money. I do however work 4 days, finish at 4pm and enjoy my evenings with my pre schoolers, doing tea-bath-stories-bed with them. I wouldn't have it any other way.

This is really important to me and how I hope to be when we have kids. So pay isn't the only consideration. My work life balance is great. Whilst I exceed my targets, I still do lots outside of work and would want that to continue once I have kids

Have you spoken to any recruitment consultants? They should be able to tell you which firms have vacancies in your area but also tell you how desperate your firm is to recruit (and hold people) which may impact on salaries. There is no point in walking in and demanding
£££ if your firm is sitting pretty and benefitting from people moving out of London and the fact that it isn't a Sheds or DLA type set up.
I see someone else has made the point about you can't plan a pregnancy. One thing to consider is the immediate impact going somewhere like Sheds or DLA would have on your income. The pay increase may essentially compensate for the lack of enhanced maternity. Alternatively, it could put a few years of savings behind you if you need to pay for IVF or cut down your hours once you have DC. Bear in mind that even if you haven't been there for 2 years you will still get statutory maternity pay and that the firm can't discriminate against you.
Finally, I want to pick up on your comment about panic attacks. If you're coming up for 2yr PQE you must have done most of your training contract at least pre-Covid. What changed when you moved to a regional firm to stop those? How can you ensure you'll create that at a future firm? Actually being able to do your job (and hopefully enjoy it!) is pretty important.

@Spinner12345

I think it partly depends on whether your firm wants to compete with Eversheds/DLA for talent or not. You don’t say if you do similar work to Eversheds/DLA so the partners may not think it’s an issue. Another key factor is how many people have been moving in your firm recently, the jobs market is very hot in a lot of legal sectors so I’d expect if you were competing with the larger firms you’ll have seen that internally. Your partner won’t have the authority to give you that much of a rise but if enough of you ask they might change the salary bands for everyone. Are you close enough to your colleagues to discuss salary to see if they’re willing to ask for the same?

They do compete with those firms for talent. We've had quite a few move recently to Clyde & Co (London), RPC & DACB. I think this is obviously driven by salaries. I have also been contacted by internal recruitment agents for HSF, Fieldfisher, Clyde & Co so they are definitely competing with these firms so need to keep the pay competitive!

@Spinner12345

I think it partly depends on whether your firm wants to compete with Eversheds/DLA for talent or not. You don’t say if you do similar work to Eversheds/DLA so the partners may not think it’s an issue. Another key factor is how many people have been moving in your firm recently, the jobs market is very hot in a lot of legal sectors so I’d expect if you were competing with the larger firms you’ll have seen that internally. Your partner won’t have the authority to give you that much of a rise but if enough of you ask they might change the salary bands for everyone. Are you close enough to your colleagues to discuss salary to see if they’re willing to ask for the same?

Sorry, didn't reply to the last bit! The other juniors in my team don't really share apart from one so that's helpful as we will keep each other updated.

Agree on banding and sorry if I haven't been clear, I don't expect my salary to be ahead of my peers, not at all! I think the bandings should be adjusted upwards for everyone

@mrsmalcolmreynolds

Depending on how attractive you and colleagues are to the likes of Eversheds etc it might well be your current firm is seriously considering pay increases anyway - I'm a partner (not any of the firms named but we do compete with them) and we are v conscious that associates are getting called by agents all the time.

Totally agree with PP though that at 2PQE you will not get more than top of band - no-one is valuable enough when that junior to risk word getting out amongst your peers, pissing them off and creating mayhem in the 2-5PQE cohort.

That's true, I know the other juniors are being contacted just as much as I am!

I agree completely with your last point and I want them to move everyone up so it remains competitive. It's a bit demoralising having friends at other firms who are just qualifying (March) or did in September and are already on more than me. That's regionally too. And at directly comparable firms (also regional)

[quote DragonMamma]@HuntyGirl the thing is, if smaller, regional firms paid multinational firm salaries, then they wouldn’t last for very long unless they hiked up their hourly rates and started going for the huge deals.

Nicely, I think you’re being naive if you think your salary has to match Eversheds or DLA, just because they pay more. The extra salary comes at a cost (usually work life/balance).

You’ve said yourself, you like your job a lot? Why are you looking at what everybody else is getting paid? We can always find somebody who’s getting paid more…[/quote]
It's one of the larger regional firms though and usually has the highest NQ salary for regional firms. I only expect my salary to go up in relation to the raised NQ salary (to recognise being 2 years ahead at that point in September).

I absolutely love my job and that is a massive consideration as I feel very fulfilled, challenged, supported etc. It's a great firm with a great environment and I'm really happy. Just want a pay increase that ensures I'm not left behind my peers!

@Fusillage I completely accept that and understand TTC won't always go to schedule.

Satisfaction is more important to me. However, I do want to be paid market rate for my level. Profits have gone up, it was our best year last year. Exactly - partners will be reticent to increase everyone by so much as it directly affects them. But so will losing a lot of talent in the current market. I imagine it's a balancing act for them.

I put in more than is expected of me which my partners pick up on and kindly praise me for. I regularly record around 30-45mins extra above my target everyday, I am involved in other initiatives within the firm, do lots of BD etc and I know they appreciate it. It's also nice having them be so vocal about the appreciation.

Lots of associates and senior associates (we also have a level above SA but below partner) are moving due to the market. I think they are going to have to address it.

Asking is fine but it can have repercussions later so it's a balancing act. Are you prepared to leave? Are there jobs actually available at the proposed salary?

I know people doing my job that are paid more but they are in a different location or have worse t&c's weigh that up too

@CayrolBaaaskin

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/dla-piper-wades-into-nq-salary-war/5111430.article

https://www.thelawyer.com/eversheds-nqs-regional-salaries-rise-by-a-quarter-in-latest-hike/

Most recent articles.

I think when people start TTC or choose to have kids is a very personal decision. PP on this thread have also highlighted that TTC doesn't always follow a schedule and could take longer than expected. In my opinion, it's not too early and may even be prudent to do so knowing that many couples can struggle to conceive. I know that many female lawyers choose to wait until mid-late 30s which is understandable and completely their prerogative. I understand it in terms of security, career progression and pay etc but DH and I have decided we don't want to wait until then and that's our decision to make, no one elses.

I didn't realise they did so much in debt collection! Definitely not what I would want to be doing.

I agree, I won't ask my partner for a £20k pay rise. I think a good way to approach it is by saying that I expect to be on £5-6k more than the revised NQ salary (as it will be going up in September) as I know my firm does £2-3k pay rises for each year of PQE. What do people think of that approach?

I note your point about part time working and that is an important point. All the mums in my team (bar one) work 3 or 4 days a week and my partners seem to be OK with it! But you never really know until hard times I suppose

@Chessie678 agreed it would be difficult at a city firm. My colleague has a friend who is at a city firm and on her return to work after mat leave her partner asked her what her non negotiables were. She said 'I need to see my child at least once a day, whether that be in the morning to give them breakfast and drop them to nursery or pick them up in the evening and do bedtime, that's what I want.' I was shocked to say the least. That's not how I see myself as a parent so would never consider a city firm as I think that's ridiculous.

I agree that those things matter much more. I think this thread has helped me get some perspective back. I love my firm and was adamant that I didn't want to move but when I saw those salary hikes I couldn't believe it!

I imagine that is also true, going back to this job would be easy I feel as I love the work, have great support and a great team. Thank you for your helpful post

@D0lphine that's true. We would like to try and have kids close together so I think once I start having kids I would like to stay at the same firm to keep it simple.

That's true, as were young so pushing back by a year wouldn't be the end of the world. It's not my preference at all but have to consider everything and would want to be in the best financial position prior to starting our family.

I would rather take the full year! I look forward to it and I know a lot of women who have really enjoyed that time with their babies.