Women taking the fall for men

[UnbelievableAlien]

I think women are often set up to take the fall for men.

Whether is Allegra Stratton having to lose her job for a couple of comments about parties while her boss Johnson keeps his after actually attending the parties.

Or, more seriously, Ghislaine Maxwell being the only person who is alive facing justice (rightly) for her role in trafficking while not a single man who actually commuted the abuse is.

Possibly Cressida Dick taking the fall for her disgusting sexist, homophobic, racist male colleagues, but the buck does stop with her, so probably not such a concrete example.

Of course these women are responsible for their own actions, but it is weird that what the men do is often worse but the woman are the ones who take the blame! AIBU?

Well Epstein was in jail tbf. And our Andy is starting to sweat a bit not that he'll go anywhere near a prison.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Ghislaine Maxwell is a really interesting example. The harm could not have happened without the men. She could not have harmed the young women without the men, the weapon is literally a penis. But the only person prosecuted is the only one incapable of causing the actual harm.

It is shocking. And quite obviously wrong.

I’m sorry but Ghislaine Maxwell sexually assaulted Virginia with her hands.

@Porcupineintherough

Does anyone really believe that Carrie is behind Boris' boorish and incompetent behaviour though? I mean he's been like that for years and she's pretty new on the scene.

Sadly, I think they will. A lot of commentators are saying that Boris 'lost his chance of greatness' when he chose the wrong woman. Apparently his former wife tucked in his shirt and organised his life, while Carrie, the modern hussy, led him astray. Great men shouldn't be expected to tuck their own shirt in.

@sadpapercourtesan

I agree with you, and I despair that people seem unable to grasp the nuance - yes, these women individually have done appalling things and deserve to be sacked/prosecuted depending on their misdeeds.

It is possible to recognise that while still pointing out that they are being hung out to dry while powerful men, often men who have had more agency and done more appalling things, hide behind them. Allegra Stratton deserved to be fired for what she did. She was one of many people, most of them male, who deserved to be fired. It isn't a coincidence that she ended up as the public face of punishment and humiliation for the entire episode, while the PM and other male culprits remain in post.

Nobody is cheerleading for Ghislaine Maxwell. Very few would argue that Cressida Dick isn't a corrupt police officer. That's not the point.

I have just read this out loud to my family! Thanks for summing things up so brilliantly.

@Porcupineintherough

Well Epstein was in jail tbf. And our Andy is starting to sweat a bit not that he'll go anywhere near a prison.

Was he not just on remand? He had no trial, and he didn't admit it.

@PearPickingPorky well yeah, he died. I wouldnt exactly say he got off easy, though it would be nice to have seen him on trial naming names.

Ghislaine Maxwell is responsible for her own crimes ,I have watched servereal documentaries where there are accounts that she physically joined in with the sexual abuse ,she is far from innocent
Cressida Dick was the head of the metropolitan police ,whilst some appalling things happened so by that fact alone she didn't do her job .

I think each of these women should have gone as they are responsible for their own actions.
So I'm not sure women are taking the fall for men, but why are women the only ones falling? Men are so bloody arrogant that they just carry on, and they get away with it. Makes me furious.

I’d agree to an extent, possibly excluding Dick from your list, as I think she has her own litany of corrupt and incompetent acts to be responsible for. Women are certainly considered more disposable than men, in general and in the world. But with Maxwell and Stratton, what is notable is that they were accomplices, if you like, but the main players were men who have, for whatever reason, escaped justice (so far). So the gendered power dynamic is apparent.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@PearPickingPorky well yeah, he died. I wouldnt exactly say he got off easy, though it would be nice to have seen him on trial naming names.[/quote]
I am aware. My point was, he was never jailed. He was never convicted and he escaped his due punishment.

Yabu. These women are responsible for their own monumental fuck ups.

I agree that women often cop the flak for men. However, the examples you’ve given are dreadful.

Let's not minimize Maxwell,s involvement,she procured young ,women to be essentially sex slaves ,it's not like she accidentally got involved, and she allegedly sexually assaulted some women herself ,I hope more men do stand trial for this I suspect some are extremely high profile,but that shouldn't minimize Maxwell,s crimes

Cressida Dick has resigned because she has not been able to address the poor behaviour of MALE police officers. Of course they can't control their own behaviour. Their senior male officers can't control them or perhaps don't see anything wrong with it. Naturally the woman should go because the men can't behave.

@MarchCrocus

There's a point in there about awful men being more likely to get away with being awful for longer than awful women do. I'm just not sure Cressida Dick is the example you want.

She was like fucking Teflon. To the extent that I always assumed she'd only been able to hang on that long because she had some serious dirt on someone, even bearing in mind her significant class privilege. She hasn't taken the fall for anyone: she hasn't even taken anything like enough fall for her own misdeeds.

This in spades. She hung onto the job long after she should have been fired.

@cocktailclub

Cressida Dick has resigned because she has not been able to address the poor behaviour of MALE police officers. Of course they can't control their own behaviour. Their senior male officers can't control them or perhaps don't see anything wrong with it. Naturally the woman should go because the men can't behave.

She was the head of the organisation, ffs. The buck stopped with her.

@cocktailclub

Cressida Dick has resigned because she has not been able to address the poor behaviour of MALE police officers. Of course they can't control their own behaviour. Their senior male officers can't control them or perhaps don't see anything wrong with it. Naturally the woman should go because the men can't behave.

Well she's the head of the metropolitan if she can't control what's going then she's in incompetent at her job that's why she has to go the buck stops with her.

Cross post!

I don't disagree with the theory at all. However this rhetoric isn't doing us any favours.

By framing it that the women were treated unfairly (which maxwell and dick were not) we simply need to ask that the men are held accountable for their actions
The wording here is important because it's distracting the point and sounds as if we want them not to be held accountable.

It translates as the women shouldn't be held accountable if the men aren't but mostly the fair argument is simply why are the men not facing accountability. Don't hand the misogynists an easy rebuttal to keep us arguing while they carry on. We are smarter than that.

This argument deflects for them without them even having to try.

Also , this winging that women only ever behave negatively because of men as an automatic is beyond detrimental to actual feminism. If we argue that we are equal we argue that we are also capable of taking consequences. This isn't about excusing dick or maxwell behaviour by painting them as incompetent patsies. Neither of them were.

Cressida dick was not weak and incompetent and simpering over men. She was ambitious, selfish and a misogynist for personal gain at the expense of other women. Maxwell was not the innocent dupe she had money and power. Trauma is not an excuse for her behaviour. Many women experience trauma and manipulation and don't drag other women down as well.

We don't get to claim strength if we hide behind weakness and don't expect our own sex to be able to withstand reasonable scrutiny without trying to undermine their freely made decisions. When ours behave like that, they face consequences.

Back to the point this isn't about them. Its about the question of pushing for the convictions of the men as well.

We are not so weak we can't handle our own consequences.

Actually poor wording in my first post apologies. We are not asking that men are held accountable we are damn well demanding.

A fair point in relation to Allegra Stratton but not the others.

GM was convicted for the crimes she herself committed. Dick presided over a catalogue of policing disasters. It does women no favours to suggest these women are just carrying the can for others because of their sex- they were hugely powerful women who should be held to account.

Dick has gone because of sexism in the Met though, not because of the murder of an innocent man. Or the lies and slander which followed it. I have some sympathy for Stratton however. But her resignation will turn out to have been a good career move imo.

@x2boys
But when will the real issue of male behaviour be addressed? She was head of the met but she didn't cause their behaviour.
Anyone who thinks one person can undo years of mysogynistic sexist behaviour is dilusional

I am far from being a supporter of any of these women! Maxwell is hellish and she really sickens me, Dick is incompetent and Stratton is about as far from my politics as is possible to be!
Nor did I suggest they should not be held accountable for their various evil crimes/ wrongdoing/ incompetences.
However why are non of the myriad of clearly guilty men being held accountable for THEIR crimes and wrongdoings in these cases?!